During my quest for an amp kit, I ran into all kinds of trouble, and I have the following suggestions for companies out there selling kits.
1. Your target customers are noobs, avid DIYers, often folks with little to no experience in electronics. Otherwise, we would have started from a schematic and build an amp from a bread board, and you wouldn't have a business.
2. Have a concise and clear assembly manual for each of your products, not just a template for all products, and the routine "Refer to the National or Tripath datasheet for more instructions".
3. For amps, please take a risk and suggest a transformer, a pot, and include wiring instructions. You don't have to endorse a brand, but give us an idea. You must have tried your product in a case using a transformer, and wiring that produces good results. Give us that. One of the biggest issues I see on this forum is hum, buzz, and other anomalies, and that detracts from the real fun. Granted I learned a lot by reading the answers on this forum, but I also get discouraged every time I turn on the "buzzamp", as my wife calls it. Some will argue that I'm trying to take the Y out of DIY, but one has to start out somewhere. You've got to crawl before you walk, be a rook before becoming a veteran. You can't give a kid a jar of peanut butter, a loaf of bread, a sharp knife, and tell him to go make himself a sandwich. And please remember to write instructions that even a child can understand.
4. Provide timely answers to emails asking for tech support. It's always "sorry for the delay getting back to you, my computer broke down, my wife turned off my computer by mistake, my cat cr*pped on the keyboard", and so on. I see quite a few frustrated customers asking for answers on this forum, because they didn't get it from the place where they purchased the kit in the first place. I bet you spent a lot of time answering emails from us idiots, so if you include good instructions with the kit in the first place, you wouldn't have to answer emails, and have more time to design new kits, and sell more!
Well, I am going to get off my soapbox now, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. If you are a noob like me, please add your comments to this thread. If you are a vendor and wish to sell many, many kits, please implement our suggestions. Kind of the ABCs of customer service, and how to be succesful selling a product. Thank you.
Hong Nguyen
1. Your target customers are noobs, avid DIYers, often folks with little to no experience in electronics. Otherwise, we would have started from a schematic and build an amp from a bread board, and you wouldn't have a business.
2. Have a concise and clear assembly manual for each of your products, not just a template for all products, and the routine "Refer to the National or Tripath datasheet for more instructions".
3. For amps, please take a risk and suggest a transformer, a pot, and include wiring instructions. You don't have to endorse a brand, but give us an idea. You must have tried your product in a case using a transformer, and wiring that produces good results. Give us that. One of the biggest issues I see on this forum is hum, buzz, and other anomalies, and that detracts from the real fun. Granted I learned a lot by reading the answers on this forum, but I also get discouraged every time I turn on the "buzzamp", as my wife calls it. Some will argue that I'm trying to take the Y out of DIY, but one has to start out somewhere. You've got to crawl before you walk, be a rook before becoming a veteran. You can't give a kid a jar of peanut butter, a loaf of bread, a sharp knife, and tell him to go make himself a sandwich. And please remember to write instructions that even a child can understand.
4. Provide timely answers to emails asking for tech support. It's always "sorry for the delay getting back to you, my computer broke down, my wife turned off my computer by mistake, my cat cr*pped on the keyboard", and so on. I see quite a few frustrated customers asking for answers on this forum, because they didn't get it from the place where they purchased the kit in the first place. I bet you spent a lot of time answering emails from us idiots, so if you include good instructions with the kit in the first place, you wouldn't have to answer emails, and have more time to design new kits, and sell more!
Well, I am going to get off my soapbox now, so if I deserve to be flamed, so be it. If you are a noob like me, please add your comments to this thread. If you are a vendor and wish to sell many, many kits, please implement our suggestions. Kind of the ABCs of customer service, and how to be succesful selling a product. Thank you.
Hong Nguyen
hi Hong,
How much did you pay for the kit? Was it the cheapest?
I think you will find that there is not much profit in these kits and the market is probably quite small so I guess there is not much incentive to have the perfect fully documented kit.
A lot of the kits on offer are from dedicated DIYers not hard nosed businessmen with a MBAs, because if they had MBAs they would know it would be more profitable doing something else.
I have been reading your other thread and by the time you succeed with this project you will have learnt a lot more than building a simple dot to dot kit.
What's the saying "no pain, no gain".
Welcome to DIYing.
How much did you pay for the kit? Was it the cheapest?
I think you will find that there is not much profit in these kits and the market is probably quite small so I guess there is not much incentive to have the perfect fully documented kit.
A lot of the kits on offer are from dedicated DIYers not hard nosed businessmen with a MBAs, because if they had MBAs they would know it would be more profitable doing something else.
I have been reading your other thread and by the time you succeed with this project you will have learnt a lot more than building a simple dot to dot kit.
What's the saying "no pain, no gain".
Welcome to DIYing.
Hey, I am a hard-nosed MBA, got my degree on the Midway when Milton Friedman made grown men cry!!! The reason I can make kits is that I did the dreadful stuff for 30 years, leaving the house at 5:30 a.m. to make the trading calls. Spending time as a professional airline seat-tester on JAL, ANA, KLM, SAS, BA and United. The first overnight from Tokyo to Stockholm is an adventure. The second is dreadful.
Yes, it's my fault, I provide dreadful documentation. Too lazy to make a copy and send it along, but it can all be downloaded from the website.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
Yes, it's my fault, I provide dreadful documentation. Too lazy to make a copy and send it along, but it can all be downloaded from the website.
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
DIY
I totally agree with the original post, companys/ people offering kits for sale are offering a product and service to a customer and should conduct themselves as profesionaly as possible. I have been prototyping and building for 25 years but most people looking for kits are new. It dosnt take that long to include a part A in slot A directions along with basic wireing and parts lists............
I totally agree with the original post, companys/ people offering kits for sale are offering a product and service to a customer and should conduct themselves as profesionaly as possible. I have been prototyping and building for 25 years but most people looking for kits are new. It dosnt take that long to include a part A in slot A directions along with basic wireing and parts lists............
Kits
I've been thinking about a somewhat kit, with the
parts that will save money from my stock along with
links and help on where to get boards, chassis and
items that I don't carry. But being a one man operation
and not that technical it would really cut into my day
with phone calls about hookup and building of the amp.
EVEN WITH DIRECTIONS. - - So I'm still thinking.
Views, - comments - etc.
Steve @ Apex Jr.
I've been thinking about a somewhat kit, with the
parts that will save money from my stock along with
links and help on where to get boards, chassis and
items that I don't carry. But being a one man operation
and not that technical it would really cut into my day
with phone calls about hookup and building of the amp.
EVEN WITH DIRECTIONS. - - So I'm still thinking.
Views, - comments - etc.
Steve @ Apex Jr.
Hi
I used to be a multimedia producer in the late
80s and 90s when videodisc was king. 40hrs
of self study Japanese etc. Doing powerpoint assembly
presentations would be fairly easy these days (still/audio) and
would sometimes be very helpful. Good soldering
practice could be taught and pictures of making a
amp or whatever would be easy as someone must make
an original prototype for testing and evaluation.
Am I making it sound too easy? For anyone interested
I could make you up a mind map of a possible production cycle.
The thing is to make it flexible so if you update the
product you are not redoing too much. It could be a podcast with
numbered pdf pages plus the DIY audio forum? The combination
might help and save time for both new and old. Also some
boards could do with better labeling. We are all learning in this
Diy arena and sometimes "we dont know that we dont know."
Regards
AnthonyPT
I used to be a multimedia producer in the late
80s and 90s when videodisc was king. 40hrs
of self study Japanese etc. Doing powerpoint assembly
presentations would be fairly easy these days (still/audio) and
would sometimes be very helpful. Good soldering
practice could be taught and pictures of making a
amp or whatever would be easy as someone must make
an original prototype for testing and evaluation.
Am I making it sound too easy? For anyone interested
I could make you up a mind map of a possible production cycle.
The thing is to make it flexible so if you update the
product you are not redoing too much. It could be a podcast with
numbered pdf pages plus the DIY audio forum? The combination
might help and save time for both new and old. Also some
boards could do with better labeling. We are all learning in this
Diy arena and sometimes "we dont know that we dont know."
Regards
AnthonyPT
I have many times gone back and forth wanting to DIY a GC myself and the ones offered on chipamp.com are so inviting, but being someone who has no idea which end of the soldering gun you should hold on to, makes this dream rather monumental to achieve. Honestly, it would really be great if there is a GC kit suitable for DUMMIES like me.
Today, I plucked up my courage and told myself, I gotta get off my butt and do it, so I plonked on to the local electronics shop to find a simple amp kit for starters and to learn how to solder b4 venturing to the GC kits available on chipamps.com. Guess what the local storekeeper said? You are not going to be able to DIY without ZERO knowledge in electronics. 
So, should I give up my dream of owning a DIY GC?
If there's a DUMMY LM3875 or LM 3886 kit, you bet your last dollar, I'll be in the line if not the first.
Any suggestions where I can find one? For those who have completed their kits from Chipamp.com, can you offer the degree of difficulty that you have encountered building the amp? Feedback from equally INCOMPETENT DIYERs like myself would be most appreciated. I am not willing to give up just yet. I still want my Gainclone.
Today, I plucked up my courage and told myself, I gotta get off my butt and do it, so I plonked on to the local electronics shop to find a simple amp kit for starters and to learn how to solder b4 venturing to the GC kits available on chipamps.com. Guess what the local storekeeper said?
You are not going to be able to DIY without ZERO knowledge in electronics. So, should I give up my dream of owning a DIY GC? If there's a DUMMY LM3875 or LM 3886 kit, you bet your last dollar, I'll be in the line if not the first.
Any suggestions where I can find one? For those who have completed their kits from Chipamp.com, can you offer the degree of difficulty that you have encountered building the amp? Feedback from equally INCOMPETENT DIYERs like myself would be most appreciated. I am not willing to give up just yet. I still want my Gainclone.
Got an MBA too, so what, I was an Engineer first (and second too)
DIY (or DOM, doing it myself) is sometimes not even that much cheaper than buying commercial but how am I supposed to switch of at night? (well, that is except for the evenings DIT with the Ms.)
Edit: Of course it is helpfull to the total beginners if a good step by step guide is available. Look for kits who have that.
Reading the post above. I don't think that is true, except for wiring main voltages. Even main voltages are not difficult but they are dangerous when done wrong. For the low voltage parts you can blow a few and not loose a hole lot of many. Do wear safety glasses though.
Safetyman: I think you will find the basic LM3875 from chipamps.com quite do-able. There are only very few issues in the guide that are not adressed. I did a couple of those and blew up the first one because I wanted it so bad that I worked on it until 4 o'clock at night. Take your time and I think it work out nicely. If you have a friend that can check your main voltage wiring that would be even better.
DIY (or DOM, doing it myself) is sometimes not even that much cheaper than buying commercial but how am I supposed to switch of at night? (well, that is except for the evenings DIT with the Ms.)
Edit: Of course it is helpfull to the total beginners if a good step by step guide is available. Look for kits who have that.
Reading the post above. I don't think that is true, except for wiring main voltages. Even main voltages are not difficult but they are dangerous when done wrong. For the low voltage parts you can blow a few and not loose a hole lot of many. Do wear safety glasses though.
Safetyman: I think you will find the basic LM3875 from chipamps.com quite do-able. There are only very few issues in the guide that are not adressed. I did a couple of those and blew up the first one because I wanted it so bad that I worked on it until 4 o'clock at night. Take your time and I think it work out nicely. If you have a friend that can check your main voltage wiring that would be even better.
safetyman said:I still want my Gainclone.
Why don't you ask for an assembled version?
For additonal small fee any of my kits can be delivered assembled and tested, all needed is connecting a transformer.
If there is more demand for such (assembled) kits I can put the info on my website and call it "GC kit suitable for DUMMIES"
Seriously though, any arrangement can be discussed, and the advice is always given. In some cases, where a person has problems with getting the kit working properly, I even offer to send it back to me for a "repair".
Peter Daniel said:
Why don't you ask for an assembled version?
For additonal small fee any of my kits can be delivered assembled and tested, all needed is connecting a transformer.
If there is more demand for such (assembled) kits I can put the info on my website and call it "GC kit suitable for DUMMIES"
Seriously though, any arrangement can be discussed, and the advice is always given. In some cases, where a person has problems with getting the kit working properly, I even offer to send it back to me for a "repair".
Peter, thanks for an ultra fast respond. I noticed on your site, I can get it assembled, but part of wanting the GC, I wanted to be able to DIY it myself, so that I may then go onto tweaking or experimenting with it.
Please do not get the DUMMIES like me wrong, we are not trying to be picky or annoying, but for myself, I love all this stuff and especially music and the greatest joy would be able to put one together myself and having it sound good.
Peter, you'll definitely be hearing from me in the not too far future, as I am having the next week off and I have asked a friend to take me thru the first step of soldering. I hope that after a week of soldering a PCB, and learning about diodes, resistors and capacitors, I may be armed with little knowledge to have a go at one of your GC.
All this effort for the love of music and DIY.
Safetyman,
I am a former trauma nurse who can resuscitate dead people. I can handle a syringe and stick you blindfolded, but I know nothing about electronics. I started out doing a cheap Velleman 10 watt kit first. If you look at their kits, the instructions are just awsome. The diagrams are clearly illustrated, the transformer is always specified, and once you solder the whole thing together, everything works without hum or buzz. I'm not comparing a million dollar company to kit makers, but a 5 page manual is not that complicated to produce. Don't feel alone, man. I've done 2 sets of speakers and 2 amps, not knowing what a capacitor does a year ago. I'm kind of glad I'm not the only one around here. I think kit makers such as Brian, Peter, Russ, and Jan will open the doors to more of us enjoying this hobby if they make it intuitive for us. Just look at a Velleman instruction manual for kit K8060 for instance.
Velleman
I am a former trauma nurse who can resuscitate dead people. I can handle a syringe and stick you blindfolded, but I know nothing about electronics. I started out doing a cheap Velleman 10 watt kit first. If you look at their kits, the instructions are just awsome. The diagrams are clearly illustrated, the transformer is always specified, and once you solder the whole thing together, everything works without hum or buzz. I'm not comparing a million dollar company to kit makers, but a 5 page manual is not that complicated to produce. Don't feel alone, man. I've done 2 sets of speakers and 2 amps, not knowing what a capacitor does a year ago. I'm kind of glad I'm not the only one around here. I think kit makers such as Brian, Peter, Russ, and Jan will open the doors to more of us enjoying this hobby if they make it intuitive for us. Just look at a Velleman instruction manual for kit K8060 for instance.
Velleman
I have some first hand experience here.
Kits take a lot of time. No matter the documentation people who are building kits will call to ask about which parts sound the best and lot's of "what if" scenarios. You also have to continually update instructions as suppliers change and the product changes (always happens over time).
If you don't build margin into the product to cover your time you end up working for a couple dollars an hour. It's very difficult to make a living doing it simply because there are so many people willing to design and give away PCBs and plans. The net result is that the majority of companies who try to do the kit thing eventually get out of it. Most migrate to selling a finished product. Let's do a quick analysis.
Amplifier: LM4780 Based: Cost of parts for a complete 2-channel kit in low volume (less than 50 units):
Parts Cost for amplifier minus chassis: $50
Parts Cost for Chassis: Anywhere from $50-$200
What could you sell a kit for? I'm guessing the market wouldn't support more than $250-$300 for a complete 2-channel kit. Why... because you can go out and buy boards and parts from a half dozen places and piece it together cheaper.
If you go with a best-case situation and your total cost is only $100 for parts. You then have to calculate how many hours you have in development, purchasing, packing, shipping and sorting and the cost of capital. Calculate the time to do some good instructions and add some time to update them. Calculate how much time you have in customer support. Now... if the kit only cost you $100 in parts and you sell them for $300 (best case, more than likely the $250 price point would be better). Let's say you sell 200 a year (wildly optimistic number, I'd say one a week is a more realistic goal). In the best case you are talking a $40,000/year profit. Of course that doesn't cover any of your overhead. If you take credit cards it's 3-4%, PayPal 4%. You have to calculate the cost of an accountant, cost of capital, setting up a business, packing materials and a place to assemble ship all these kits. Let's just say $5,000 in other cost just to be conservative, I guarantee it will be much higher.
So... our best case is $35,000 of profit. Our worst case? You loose money. From my experience in the market you would be lucky to sell one complete kit a week. That would be at $250 each. From my experience your cost would actually be higher than the $100 I quoted earlier. So a more realistic figure would be $6500 a year in profit.
I have a finished LM4780 based amplifier sitting on the shelf that was aborted because once I did the above math it didn't make sense to bring it to market.
Kits take a lot of time. No matter the documentation people who are building kits will call to ask about which parts sound the best and lot's of "what if" scenarios. You also have to continually update instructions as suppliers change and the product changes (always happens over time).
If you don't build margin into the product to cover your time you end up working for a couple dollars an hour. It's very difficult to make a living doing it simply because there are so many people willing to design and give away PCBs and plans. The net result is that the majority of companies who try to do the kit thing eventually get out of it. Most migrate to selling a finished product. Let's do a quick analysis.
Amplifier: LM4780 Based: Cost of parts for a complete 2-channel kit in low volume (less than 50 units):
Parts Cost for amplifier minus chassis: $50
Parts Cost for Chassis: Anywhere from $50-$200
What could you sell a kit for? I'm guessing the market wouldn't support more than $250-$300 for a complete 2-channel kit. Why... because you can go out and buy boards and parts from a half dozen places and piece it together cheaper.
If you go with a best-case situation and your total cost is only $100 for parts. You then have to calculate how many hours you have in development, purchasing, packing, shipping and sorting and the cost of capital. Calculate the time to do some good instructions and add some time to update them. Calculate how much time you have in customer support. Now... if the kit only cost you $100 in parts and you sell them for $300 (best case, more than likely the $250 price point would be better). Let's say you sell 200 a year (wildly optimistic number, I'd say one a week is a more realistic goal). In the best case you are talking a $40,000/year profit. Of course that doesn't cover any of your overhead. If you take credit cards it's 3-4%, PayPal 4%. You have to calculate the cost of an accountant, cost of capital, setting up a business, packing materials and a place to assemble ship all these kits. Let's just say $5,000 in other cost just to be conservative, I guarantee it will be much higher.
So... our best case is $35,000 of profit. Our worst case? You loose money. From my experience in the market you would be lucky to sell one complete kit a week. That would be at $250 each. From my experience your cost would actually be higher than the $100 I quoted earlier. So a more realistic figure would be $6500 a year in profit.
I have a finished LM4780 based amplifier sitting on the shelf that was aborted because once I did the above math it didn't make sense to bring it to market.
For me DIY means a challenge. No challenge no fun. All I can suggest is that maybe some kits are not for everybody?? Don't know how to solder?? Well you better learn. And it's not the responsibility of the person selling the kit. The few selling kits can't hold everybody's hand in the assembly and wiring process. I think Peter sells one completely done, for how much $$$$. Some of you should just buy it and not DIY. Ok done flaming. I really can see where some of you are coming from, but I don't think DIY is for everybody. Example: I just did a head and cam package on my buds 99 Vette. I'm NOT a mechanic just very mechanically inclined. For me it was DIY. Was it easy?? Was a pain in my A$$ at times. But let me tell ya when it's done what a great feeling. And saved about $3000.
done flaming. I really can see where some of you are coming from, but I don't think DIY is for everybody. Example: I just did a head and cam package on my buds 99 Vette. I'm NOT a mechanic just very mechanically inclined. For me it was DIY. Was it easy?? Was a pain in my A$$ at times. But let me tell ya when it's done what a great feeling. And saved about $3000. 
I'm with you, Bender.
As a kid I built some Heathkits and did some messing about with tube amps built from a schematic.
Twenty some years ago, I bought a Hafler DH500 kit thinking it would be something fun along the lines of the Heathkit stuff. Imagine my disappointment when I opened teh box and found all I had to do was mount a few parts to the chassis and make the power, input and output connections. less than an hour and my fun was over.
That said, it is too bad that the market will not support a company like Heathkit for people looking to get into this hobby. A teenager with no experience could follow the step by step directions Heathkit provided and end up with a working receiver.
Unfortunately there isn't a lot most people are willing to do themselves these days if they can throw a couple of bucks at it instead. If a microwave meal is almost as good as what you could make yourself, why bother? Most people look at me funny when they learn that I like to build my audio equipment - and can't comprehend my answer to their, "Why not just buy B&$#?" Even when listening to my system.
As a kid I built some Heathkits and did some messing about with tube amps built from a schematic.
Twenty some years ago, I bought a Hafler DH500 kit thinking it would be something fun along the lines of the Heathkit stuff. Imagine my disappointment when I opened teh box and found all I had to do was mount a few parts to the chassis and make the power, input and output connections. less than an hour and my fun was over.
That said, it is too bad that the market will not support a company like Heathkit for people looking to get into this hobby. A teenager with no experience could follow the step by step directions Heathkit provided and end up with a working receiver.
Unfortunately there isn't a lot most people are willing to do themselves these days if they can throw a couple of bucks at it instead. If a microwave meal is almost as good as what you could make yourself, why bother? Most people look at me funny when they learn that I like to build my audio equipment - and can't comprehend my answer to their, "Why not just buy B&$#?" Even when listening to my system.
I think you miss the point Bob. Most DIYers get into this hobby because they want to do it themselves. I've been doing speakers for over a year now. I don't buy ready made boxes. I learned to rout MDF, apply real veneer, and do the xo from scratch. I don't even do other people's projects because I learn faster by making my own mistakes. An amp is a different ball game. A lot of people who have been doing speakers for a long time often have not even done an amp. Amps are much more unforgiving, therefore, dummies like us need better instructions when doing our first kit. Hey, if you have an untapped audience out there, why not go after them by advertising the fact that your kits are easy to assemble, and good results guaranteed the first time around?? Think of the guy who came up with the "For Dummies" series books. He's rolling in cash right now.
Well, as an engineer with electronic design experience, including occasional audio amplifiers (although low power voice communications, not hi-fi), I still think number 3 from the original poster's list would be helpful.
I look at a lot of kits (or a lot of circuits, in general) and I always ask myself "what about the power supply?".
I could design a power supply to give me the right rails and enough current without a problem, but it has been useful browsing this site to find out what people have used. Brand names, minimum ratings, where to buy from, and so on. I'm familiar with Hammond, but companies like Avel and Plitron I've never heard of in my day to day job - it's mainly on here. I know how to rectify the transformer output, how to get rid of ripple, how to protect against voltage sag and spikes, but to be honest, linear supplies are not that common any more, and I rarely work with them.
Really, the only two reasons I look at kits instead of just finding a schematic and doing it myself is someone else has done the board layout, and someone else has chosen parts. There are a lot of opinions about what components to use and what to avoid for audio circuits, and that comes from experience I don't have.
It would be very useful to me, as someone with enough electronics knowledge and experience, but just lacks specific DIY audio experience, if the people posting kits through a paragraph in the description that says "I verified this with this transformer and this much capacitance with this type of rectifier".
I look at a lot of kits (or a lot of circuits, in general) and I always ask myself "what about the power supply?".
I could design a power supply to give me the right rails and enough current without a problem, but it has been useful browsing this site to find out what people have used. Brand names, minimum ratings, where to buy from, and so on. I'm familiar with Hammond, but companies like Avel and Plitron I've never heard of in my day to day job - it's mainly on here. I know how to rectify the transformer output, how to get rid of ripple, how to protect against voltage sag and spikes, but to be honest, linear supplies are not that common any more, and I rarely work with them.
Really, the only two reasons I look at kits instead of just finding a schematic and doing it myself is someone else has done the board layout, and someone else has chosen parts. There are a lot of opinions about what components to use and what to avoid for audio circuits, and that comes from experience I don't have.
It would be very useful to me, as someone with enough electronics knowledge and experience, but just lacks specific DIY audio experience, if the people posting kits through a paragraph in the description that says "I verified this with this transformer and this much capacitance with this type of rectifier".
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