What!
First of all, anyone that pays $10-20K (20 grand!!?!) for freakin cables is completely insane,and has more money than brains,IMHO...
(Flame suit on
)I was a cable skeptic for a long time,untill one day I decided to play around with interconnects,and I DID notice a difference in sound..
I DIY'd some cables I found on TNT's site,among other places..(braided cat5,and phone cord wire,Magnet wire seperated by "packing tape",coaxial cable,etc.I tried quite a few variations.) Most sounded worse to me,compared to the generic cables that came with my CD-player,tape deck,etc. so I'm still using the generic cables.
I did get quite a suprise when I swapped my speaker cables!
I had used 14awg "zip-cord" for speaker wire for years..
then I got some OFC wire from a car install I helped a friend with..
15awg OFC Rockford Fosgate wire..Not expecting any real difference,I was suprised!, bass was tighter,and the treble was "cleaner" with less grainy-ness.. I've been using the R-F wire ever since..
Finally,I became a believer.
I think cable's can make a difference,but it's a fairly subtle one(to me anyways)..one of those things I'd start tweaking after I got everything else where I liked it..but not something i'd take out a 2nd mortgage for..
That test only shows what other test - see dunlavy's stunt - have said before. There is some difference in cables, but imho it is the interplay within the reproduction system (not reproductive system). The best example is how some amps react to goertz ls cable.
I run my chain with canare quad both for ls and rca/xlr, and see no reason to change those well made cables for anything else.
I run my chain with canare quad both for ls and rca/xlr, and see no reason to change those well made cables for anything else.
Re: Re: It's official: all cables sound the same!
Inconsistent is the conclusion of most blind tests with most unexperienced listeners.
I did blind A-B tests with interconnects.
Without knowing what was playing and with other person switching inputs, I was able to pick the best sounding cable.
Right after that we confirmed with a sighted test, we've got the same conclusion.
But I've been present on blind tests where people couldn't pick the difference, and the difference was there all the time.
There is no conclusion to take from most blind tests, because they should have the same conclusion as a sighted test and most of the times they don't.
I would call those guys amateurs, whoever they are.
jeff mai said:
Inconsistent is the conclusion of most blind tests with most unexperienced listeners.
I did blind A-B tests with interconnects.
Without knowing what was playing and with other person switching inputs, I was able to pick the best sounding cable.
Right after that we confirmed with a sighted test, we've got the same conclusion.
But I've been present on blind tests where people couldn't pick the difference, and the difference was there all the time.
There is no conclusion to take from most blind tests, because they should have the same conclusion as a sighted test and most of the times they don't.
I would call those guys amateurs, whoever they are.
Paul Ranson said:
Paul,
Yes the one in the test is Jason Hector. Don't know him, I normally don't read the glossies but this time I wandered in a book shop at NATO HQ in Brussels while waiting for my meeting to begin and the cover caught my attention.
Anyway, Jason (if you'r listening) I am not out to blame you for anything or what, not at all. I know how unreliable our perception is, mine included, but my gripe was with the post ante (nice term) fudging of data to conform to expectations.
Jan Didden
Well, crap amplifiers & equipment always have and always will have a hard time driving cables. The 'phile way of eq is to leave the tone controls out 'coz tone controls "are bad" and then take a POS output stage with high output Z to drive a high capacitance cable to accomplish a HF rolloff. And then tweak the power amp PSU to the correct crappiness for "bass slam".
Man, do I feel lucky I don't work in this field...
Jan, good article!
/M
Man, do I feel lucky I don't work in this field...
Jan, good article!
/M
janneman said:
I don't understand this question.
I'm sharing my experience, while most people here talk theories.You guys take it or leave it.
I know people that also consistently get it right when put to the test.
These people work in the field and have much more experience listening than all of us.
I've made too many tests, too many listening sessions and comparisons, I've learned alot in the last years.
BTW the blind test I was talking about was made with expensive commercial gear, on a local distributor.
Swedish Chef said:
I beg your pardon?
Is this for me, Chef?
It seams that you are a little confused with PSUs and zobels?
Swedish Chef said:Man, do I feel lucky I don't work in this field...
Me neither.
I remember the days when Edwin van der Kley and Michiel de Goeij started their Siltech cables.
At the time the concensus here already was that vd Hull cables sounded very well.
Unless i talked to one of his former collegues at the Delft electronics faculty who did not have a positive comment to say on vdHull.
At the time cables were very much the issue, skineffect and molecule orientation seemed to dominate.
Mr Pass mentioned recently in another thread on electrolytes that there arent that many electrolytic producers globally, fewer than the number of brands.
In the eightees a German audio magazine conducted comparison test on cables for a couple of years, even comparing audio cable with regular industrial cable.
Years before "L'Audiphile" had spent a lot of time on cables too.
The comparisons in Germany revealed that a number of "audiophilic" cable actually were regular industrial coded wires, a couple of vdHull's cables were identified as such.
Not surprising, vdHull was winding his PU elements by hand on the attic of his home, and done so for years.
No way he could have had access to production facilities, placing a regular special order for different labled cable was much easier.
At the time i went to Germany and bought me some of that industrial cable too.
I still remember the 1/2 inch thick RG214 silverstranded cable from the Berkenhoff & Drebes factory, at $ 1.70 the feet, i used Bi-cabled as speakercable.
Another favorite was the Teflon isolated RG196 at $ 0.70 per feet.
For me, Teflon and Silver became the best combination, sonic differences were apparent.
20 Years ago Siltech had established the name for best audio cables, stating to produce the cables in Nijmegen in Holland.
Undoubtebly they are handwiring their cables in Elst, given the far out pricetags for their cables they must be pooring their blood over the cables at production.
Cables do effect sound production, whether i am able to hear the difference facing mega dollar cable is questionable.
Hell may freeze over before i am willing to pay $ 10.000 for 16 feet of Siltech cable, or any other manufacturers product.
Are you ?
At the time the concensus here already was that vd Hull cables sounded very well.
Unless i talked to one of his former collegues at the Delft electronics faculty who did not have a positive comment to say on vdHull.
At the time cables were very much the issue, skineffect and molecule orientation seemed to dominate.
Mr Pass mentioned recently in another thread on electrolytes that there arent that many electrolytic producers globally, fewer than the number of brands.
In the eightees a German audio magazine conducted comparison test on cables for a couple of years, even comparing audio cable with regular industrial cable.
Years before "L'Audiphile" had spent a lot of time on cables too.
The comparisons in Germany revealed that a number of "audiophilic" cable actually were regular industrial coded wires, a couple of vdHull's cables were identified as such.
Not surprising, vdHull was winding his PU elements by hand on the attic of his home, and done so for years.
No way he could have had access to production facilities, placing a regular special order for different labled cable was much easier.
At the time i went to Germany and bought me some of that industrial cable too.
I still remember the 1/2 inch thick RG214 silverstranded cable from the Berkenhoff & Drebes factory, at $ 1.70 the feet, i used Bi-cabled as speakercable.
Another favorite was the Teflon isolated RG196 at $ 0.70 per feet.
For me, Teflon and Silver became the best combination, sonic differences were apparent.
20 Years ago Siltech had established the name for best audio cables, stating to produce the cables in Nijmegen in Holland.
Undoubtebly they are handwiring their cables in Elst, given the far out pricetags for their cables they must be pooring their blood over the cables at production.
Cables do effect sound production, whether i am able to hear the difference facing mega dollar cable is questionable.
Hell may freeze over before i am willing to pay $ 10.000 for 16 feet of Siltech cable, or any other manufacturers product.
Are you ?
jacco vermeulen said:
Every once in a while high-end coaxial cables will show up on EBay (in the Business and Industrial category) -- I purchased some triax with female connectors for a small fraction of its list price. It's often less expensive to purchase the connectors on EBay with the cable attached -- such as WECO connectors.
and speaking (well writing) of listening experiences, there is some interesting statistical analysis in the article on the engineers from Harman International which I posted a few minutes ago, linked here:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmworld/article/CA475937.html
I'm relatively new to the audio world, but I'm brave and very logical. As well as that I'm taking up extra units at uni as extra-curricular subjects to help me understand more about electronics and acoustics.
Both my parents are engineers, one acoustic and hydrotechnic engineer and the other (my dad) a master in sciences so I've had an influence to become an engineer myself (studying computers). From what I've learnt so far many factors that most don't even consider affect sound in such way that nothing can be done about it.
For example inductance will always occur, it is not possible to separate the +/- wires that go to each speaker to the diameter of the electron because as theory tells the diameter of one electron is also the span of the universe. To have monstrous cables is definately an advantage over using telephone cabling, believe me I used single strand wire and have driven my speakers to full power (~60W), and I noticed a definite change in sound when I bought some proper audio cable u can measure and cut yourself at the electronics store for $1.50p/m.
To pay exubrous amounts of well earned money on wire that will make little to no difference is perhaps the stupidest thing imaginable. I dont blame the manufacturers, rather I am happy for them because it's a doggy-eat-dog world and if you're too stupid to come to your senses you deserve to live in the make-believe world where you have the best 1m interconnect money can buy.
There is maths that is beyond most people which you could take into consideration when designing an amp to work out particular lengths and gauge, even placement of everything in the system, even the power supply can be and generally is optimised, but such a system does not exist because audiophiles like flexibility, which in turn cuts down ability. There is also realistic feasibility, which manufacturers take into consideration, such as cost/profit ratio etc.
In conclusion, better designed audio cable is better than the normal cable that you get with the dvd player, or that you buy at $1.50p/m like me but that difference is so small its above stupidity to lie to yourself and believe the difference is audible, because in most situation it's a case of self-hypnosis where you're feeding yourself placebo's. Ofcourse this is one kid's opinion, and surely although I have the knowledge, I lack the experience (as in having listened through expensive cable...)
Both my parents are engineers, one acoustic and hydrotechnic engineer and the other (my dad) a master in sciences so I've had an influence to become an engineer myself (studying computers). From what I've learnt so far many factors that most don't even consider affect sound in such way that nothing can be done about it.
For example inductance will always occur, it is not possible to separate the +/- wires that go to each speaker to the diameter of the electron because as theory tells the diameter of one electron is also the span of the universe. To have monstrous cables is definately an advantage over using telephone cabling, believe me I used single strand wire and have driven my speakers to full power (~60W), and I noticed a definite change in sound when I bought some proper audio cable u can measure and cut yourself at the electronics store for $1.50p/m.
To pay exubrous amounts of well earned money on wire that will make little to no difference is perhaps the stupidest thing imaginable. I dont blame the manufacturers, rather I am happy for them because it's a doggy-eat-dog world and if you're too stupid to come to your senses you deserve to live in the make-believe world where you have the best 1m interconnect money can buy.
There is maths that is beyond most people which you could take into consideration when designing an amp to work out particular lengths and gauge, even placement of everything in the system, even the power supply can be and generally is optimised, but such a system does not exist because audiophiles like flexibility, which in turn cuts down ability. There is also realistic feasibility, which manufacturers take into consideration, such as cost/profit ratio etc.
In conclusion, better designed audio cable is better than the normal cable that you get with the dvd player, or that you buy at $1.50p/m like me but that difference is so small its above stupidity to lie to yourself and believe the difference is audible, because in most situation it's a case of self-hypnosis where you're feeding yourself placebo's. Ofcourse this is one kid's opinion, and surely although I have the knowledge, I lack the experience (as in having listened through expensive cable...)
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.