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Old 17th August 2004, 10:38 PM   #21
RHosch is offline RHosch  United States
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Default Re: Re: Claim your $1M from the Great Randi

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Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
So, where does that leave us? With another professional charlatan and pseudoscientist...
Psuedoscientist? Randi? Now I've heard it all.

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At least there is little mention of the dreaded "ABX" test, which when performed in the usal fashion has a statistically assured ability to reliably return null results regardless of the actual facts, unless performed with sample sizes considerably (like by a factor 20 - 100) exceeding those commonly used in the audio related published test.
It only takes one individual to return a statistically valid ABX positive result. ONE.

A million null results will still only suggest reasonable limits on the likliehood of a positive result being generated, not offer immutable proof that it can never occur. Therefore, it also suggest reasonable limits on the human acuity of the sense under test... hearing in this case.

Poplulation size should only be a concern if trying to find those limits. But for the individual who swears that effect X is audible, he/she is the only person who needs to participate. After all, I can tell an apple from an orange 100% of the time by looking at them, no matter how many consecutive trials I had to get correct, no matter how much money was on the line, no matter how many people were watching, etc.

I think perhaps this is a bit tangent to the tread topic, however. Hats off to Randi once again for not being afraid to question the ludicrous.
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Old 17th August 2004, 11:46 PM   #22
sam9 is offline sam9  United States
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I read that Randi's business card describes him as "Professional Charaltan". What he means by this is that he and others in his line of work take pride in what they do as **entertainers**. He says in an interview that they consider those who use a magicians techniques to fleece the gulable are prostituting their artform.
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Old 17th August 2004, 11:55 PM   #23
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Debunking audio voodoo is cool
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Old 18th August 2004, 12:36 AM   #24
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People should go to the Shakti website and look around. I can't 'prove' that these devices do anything for audio, but I can't prove that they don't either. These devices do something real. It is best to understand what they do, before making a lot of off comments about them.
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Old 18th August 2004, 12:48 AM   #25
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
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Go Randi !

I find this highly amusing - it's so final - who would reject that kind of money if they really thougth the could get it ?

/
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Old 18th August 2004, 01:08 AM   #26
sam9 is offline sam9  United States
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People should go to the Shakti website and look around.
Just took a look. It seems Shakti stones will also add 2.7 horsepower to you car's engine output. I'm a pretty sedate driver so that doesn't really ring my chime. However, I used to follow F1 closeley, so I decided to check out www.formula1.com to see if there was any mention, since that is one place where +/- 2.7 HP can make a critical difference. I followed a few links but found no mention. Anyway, when Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Jaguar etc start putting Shakti stones "under the hood" I'lltart being more impressed.
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Old 18th August 2004, 03:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: Re: Re: Claim your $1M from the Great Randi

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Originally posted by RHosch

After all, I can tell an apple from an orange 100% of the time by looking at them, no matter how many consecutive trials I had to get correct, no matter how much money was on the line, no matter how many people were watching, etc.
Perhaps wine tasting would be a more appropriate analogy?

Like, certainly there is a difference, but not everybody can detect it 100% of the time?
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Old 18th August 2004, 03:39 AM   #28
sam9 is offline sam9  United States
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Quote:
Perhaps wine tasting would be a more appropriate analogy?

Like, certainly there is a difference, but not everybody can detect it 100% of the time?
The analogy is limited. In wine tasting there is no notion of an ideal such as "straight wire with gain". Rather there is a celebration of variety and novelty. There may be a few audiophiles that would like the idea that a dozen different amplifies each sound significantly different and they could try out each one. I don't think folks into wine tend to have the idea of seeking the one perfect ideal wine, whereas the equivalent is fairly common in audio.

By the way, the most interesting and informative wine tasing sesions I've had were double blind tests. Rather than inhibiting perceptions it seems to draw them out and make the subtlties easier to percieve. As far as I know the only time DBT in the wine world was questioned was when California wines beat out all the French offering at a session ijn Paris a few years back. Some of the French press and wineries wanted the competion repeated with the labels showing so the results would be fair. The laughter in Napa & Somona counties could be heard for miles!
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Old 18th August 2004, 03:58 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by sam9


The analogy is limited. In wine tasting there is no notion of an ideal such as "straight wire with gain". Rather there is a celebration of variety and novelty. There may be a few audiophiles that would like the idea that a dozen different amplifies each sound significantly different and they could try out each one. I don't think folks into wine tend to have the idea of seeking the one perfect ideal wine, whereas the equivalent is fairly common in audio.
I think similar analogy can be applied to audio, as there is no ultimate reference outside the designer's implementation. There is no such thing as straight wire with a gain, as some claim that even different wires sound differently. There is no ultimate reference, as whenever we reproduce something, we run it through the equipment. So we are always hearing the quality of the equipment that is reproducing it.
"Even at the recording session or at a concert, what you perceive differs according to where you are. When somebody says original acoustic sound, he is talking about his perception or image of the sound. In this sense, what decides about the sound of audio component is the designer's taste and sense which is the result of his musical experience. Same thing can be said on the reproducing system. It represents the musical experience of the audiophile who set it up. Reproducing the software through audio components is not just a mere passive act but is actually a very creative one."
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Old 18th August 2004, 04:12 AM   #30
SY is offline SY  United States
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Wine is not a good analogy. If you line up three well-made Santa Barbara Pinot Noirs and three Russian River Pinot Noirs, good tasters will have no trouble separating them under blind conditions.

If you make two wines side by side, one with indigenous yeast, the other with cultured yeast, they can readily be distinguished under blind conditions.

If you make two wines side by side, one in French oak, one in Hungarian oak, they can be readily distinguished under blind conditions.

Wine tasters somehow manage to distinguish (if not always correctly identify) wines under blind conditions, with no excuses about test pressure, that blind tasting is not like drinking wine with dinner, left-brain/right-brain, delays between sips and sniffs, whatever. Blind tasting is the gold standard for deciding which winemaking procedures make a difference and which are preferred.

I'm terribly amused that Larry Archibald tastes wines blind.
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