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Old 24th August 2004, 05:59 PM   #111
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
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Work and work. Every item has some effect on it's surrounding ! The case here is wheter it improves/changes the sound !


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Old 24th August 2004, 06:46 PM   #112
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Jan, you did NOT follow my advice that I gave Diy to Google search 'Shakti audio' in order to find real, independent measurements on one of the websites on this subject. NOW, will it work for YOU? Who knows, BUT I might try one on my new DVD player on the main processing chip. I also might put one or two in my cars, as they appear to have a measurable improvement in getting more HP out out the engine. In any case, this is a REAL device that does something that can be measured in different ways.
As far as the 'Brilliant Pebbles' are concerned. I know that Geoff Kait, the 'bottler' of 'Brilliant Pebbles' has been in the vibration damping business for years. It may be, or may not be, difficult to get measured info on what they do, just because of the test set-up necessary. For example, I would have a difficult time, myself, even though do I own an accelerometer.
Personally, I just don't have to have 'proof' in order to be satisfied with a tweak or a mod, or just leave it alone.
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Old 24th August 2004, 06:54 PM   #113
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John, if you put four Shakti stones and six Brilliant Pebbles in your trunk, you'll find a measurable improvement in traction. Remember that the next time there's a snowstorm down in Berkeley. You'll thank me!

BTW, when I drove down to Berkeley Bowl with my mother (in town for a visit), she spotted some signs declaring Berkeley to be a "Nuclear-Free Zone." She asked me how the hell that could be, they needed to have the same atoms and molecules as anybody else.
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Old 24th August 2004, 07:00 PM   #114
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SY
You should move your 2nd paragraph to an existing thread called something like "more engineering humour"
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Old 24th August 2004, 07:22 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by john curl
Jan, you did NOT follow my advice that I gave Diy to Google search 'Shakti audio' in order to find real, independent measurements on one of the websites on this subject. [snip]

You're right, I didn't. I looked at the white paper for the BPs though. That was enough for one day, I'm only human you know, can stand only so much!. A friend of mine remarked that cigars also absorb vibration (I mean, what doesn't) but smell better than BPs (allow me this little humor, OK?).

I'll look into the Shakti stuff tomorrow, seriously.

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Old 24th August 2004, 07:26 PM   #116
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OK - I read the Shakti pages and I must say that they are not convincing. If You followed any car forum and dyno threads, there is as much complexity and ways to make errors as in any business. These 2,7 hp difference in a 300 hp emgine is just plain silly and surely within the error margin with respect to handling and preparation of the test object. I don't doubt the accuracy of the test equipment.

What bothers me the most is in which frequency band that these items is supposed to operate in. Yes , I used the term "supposed" because I'm sure of that if You replaced the shakti stone with Your hand, it would give at least the same effect. I work with RF and know that when birds or snow end up on GSM antennas, it affects the performance of the system. So the scam lies in the wanted dollars for this stone. It is a rip-off, it's is a clever way of making money.

I feel sorry for the people spending money on these things, not because of their lack of experienced improvement, placebo fixes that, but for their lack of putting things into perspective and spending money on things that matter.

Also the way the stone seems to "suck" in RF from any direction is just plain silly and has none what soever foundation in any known physics.

Verdict: Claimed function satisfies Randis challenge !

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Old 24th August 2004, 08:27 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by john curl
Personally, I just don't have to have 'proof' in order to be satisfied with a tweak or a mod, or just leave it alone.
John, I think you're losing a losing battle arguing these points in this forum. Actually, your battle is lost perhaps mostly, and most consistently, with those who apparently remain unaware about the means by which knowledge progresses on this planet. Progress in knowledge necessarily involves experimentation---in the doomed-to-fail and statistically less probable successful varieties---and open-mindedness. It takes a great deal of mental discipline to develop these traits and to step out of the currently-known to question what might be the shape of the next-to-be-known. It perhaps goes without saying that the required mental discipline is not well regarded or developed in the mentally risk averse in which category is found not a small number of scientists. These latter seem almost exclusively to prefer the currently known, perhaps because the currently known lends a certain repeatable predictability to life and what. But don't expect from them a discussion about subtleties of things that might provide some or another key to what could or might come next, for you will be seen not to follow "the rule" (ABX, whatever and ever). But the exception always proves the rule, and ironically, scientists who helped put in place the regime of the currently known, that thing so favoured by the risk averse, were of the experimental mindset I mention, and were persons who could understand the message of the exception as it then presented itself to them. I think it was Sir James Jeans who in the late 19th century told an incoming class of physics students that physics had pretty much sewn things up except for two little clouds on the horizon, and that the discipline had accordingly been reduced to an unglamorous fine tuning to the next decimal place. Those "two clouds" led directly to the discoveries of quantum physics and relativity. I personally don't think the "Great" Randi has much in common with such as Einstein who can't be bothered, if I might so guess, pecking pebbles in some chicken coup the residents of which call The Universe.
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Old 24th August 2004, 08:34 PM   #118
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Actually, the 19th century physicist was Lord .... excuse me, Baron .... Kelvin, not James Jeans.
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Old 24th August 2004, 08:57 PM   #119
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Do some research, TNT. Condemnation without examination is prejudice.
It just so happens that the guy from Shakti told me that several of the measurements were made with extremely advanced dynamometers, both here and in Japan. Some were VERY accurate. In autos, as well as audio, it is the small changes that can accumulate to extra-ordinary performance.
Sere... I agree with you.
Just last night I saw a repeat TV program on NOVA that related the story of a clockmaker in the 18th century who made a VERY ACCURATE clock. In fact, it was so accurate, that no one from the educated class or nobility wanted to believe it was possible, even though they put it through YEARS of trials. After 40 years, finally, King George of England heard the story and awarded the clockmaker his due reward.
It is the same here. SY, by suggesting that Shatki stones are worthless, except as rocks, and others by demanding 'proof' without even believing, researching, or independently testing the proof put forth.
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Old 24th August 2004, 09:21 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by john curl
Condemnation without examination is prejudice.
Assume for a moment a person having some, even small presumptive authority in discerning audible differences between devices or components says, "this Thing improves the sound because of factor X." It seems to me a scientist assessing such statement might be heard to say, "the Thing very well could change the sound as stated as the person behind the statement has experience noting such changes (or has a business selling such changes, hoaxes being difficult to sell), the change could be an improvement and perhaps probably is, and the improvement might or might not result solely or at all from factor X." Far cry from what is heard from The Naysayers.
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