jh6you said:
Understood. I would think that most of the enjoyable things in life are quite personal. Imagine us all falling in love with the same girl/guy
..Going back to the origin of this discussion, which was IIRC a proposal to use listeners as 'tools' to guide amplifier development. Which means making those very personal and unique perceptions and 'memories' somehow a standard yardstick for the rest of us. That cannot be, IMO.
Jan Didden
janneman said:
Listeners as 'tools'... ???
Developer himself or herself is the actual listener as the tool, who is relying on his or her subjectivity. some of their subjectivity could be loved by many people, who also have their own subjectivity. If so, he or she will be loved by many supporters. Not by all, but by many.
Me... time to go to bed...
janneman said:
It's been well established that smell and memory have some of the strongest connections. Most people can relate many experiences where a specific smell will evoke very vivid memories of a past event related to the same smell. Smells can evoke strong physical reactions. If you have vomited, very often the smell of foods you had eaten just prior wil bring nausea, even though they may have had nothing to do with the illness. The evolutionary implications of that are obvious. There is also evidence that loss of olfactory ability can be a very early symptom (before any others) of Alzheimers.
Sheldon
setmenu,
The condition you describe is fairly well documented in the medical/scientific literature. It is called "synesthesia" and is present to some degree in perhaps 1% of the general population, maybe a bit more. Strong cases present in a fraction of a percent, some tests indicate as much as 0.5%.
The most common form of synesthesia is seeing numbers as colors, as these two parts of the brain are nearly touching. Other common forms include "seeing" various types of music as abstract objects or "seeing" certain tones as colors. Also fairly common is the association of days and months with colors.
I am unclear as to whether the strong linking of smell to sights, sounds, and especially emotions is considered to be a type of synesthesia as the effect is present in practically everyone. I am also unclear if more typical associations like visualizing numbers while counting silently (some hear them, as if spoken aloud... others see them as if written on paper) or performing mathematics is considered a form of the condition.
I do know that there is a relatively strong genetic component, and it is commonly believed that synesthetes tend to be more creative (poets, composers, artists, etc.), and it is also postulated that these people are the source of certain cross-linkings of visual and auditory phenomenon in our languages ("sharp" and "dull" sounds, "bright" and "dark" music, etc.).
Jan,
As for the topic at hand, I think I agree with most everything that you are saying except for your conclusion)) that human listeners don't make good tools with which to design better (or good) audio equipment. In fact, they are indespensible when settling issues of what level of changes is perceptible. Of course, this stipulates controlled (blind) testing--something most "audio" designers (unfortunately) avoid like the plague. And in the case of something like speakers, where there are complex mechanical/acoustic behaviors like error lobing, various distortions, power response, modal coupling, etc. that are often at odds with one another (i.e., compromises may be required in one area to increase performance in another), it may be impossible to correlate the various measurements with an overall assessment of subjective performance, especially when different people prioritize the multiple performance attributes in different orders (witness the variety of designs preferred by different people on this forum - full range, dipolar, transmission line, horn, etc.).
The condition you describe is fairly well documented in the medical/scientific literature. It is called "synesthesia" and is present to some degree in perhaps 1% of the general population, maybe a bit more. Strong cases present in a fraction of a percent, some tests indicate as much as 0.5%.
The most common form of synesthesia is seeing numbers as colors, as these two parts of the brain are nearly touching. Other common forms include "seeing" various types of music as abstract objects or "seeing" certain tones as colors. Also fairly common is the association of days and months with colors.
I am unclear as to whether the strong linking of smell to sights, sounds, and especially emotions is considered to be a type of synesthesia as the effect is present in practically everyone. I am also unclear if more typical associations like visualizing numbers while counting silently (some hear them, as if spoken aloud... others see them as if written on paper) or performing mathematics is considered a form of the condition.
I do know that there is a relatively strong genetic component, and it is commonly believed that synesthetes tend to be more creative (poets, composers, artists, etc.), and it is also postulated that these people are the source of certain cross-linkings of visual and auditory phenomenon in our languages ("sharp" and "dull" sounds, "bright" and "dark" music, etc.).
Jan,
As for the topic at hand, I think I agree with most everything that you are saying except for your conclusion
)) that human listeners don't make good tools with which to design better (or good) audio equipment. In fact, they are indespensible when settling issues of what level of changes is perceptible. Of course, this stipulates controlled (blind) testing--something most "audio" designers (unfortunately) avoid like the plague. And in the case of something like speakers, where there are complex mechanical/acoustic behaviors like error lobing, various distortions, power response, modal coupling, etc. that are often at odds with one another (i.e., compromises may be required in one area to increase performance in another), it may be impossible to correlate the various measurements with an overall assessment of subjective performance, especially when different people prioritize the multiple performance attributes in different orders (witness the variety of designs preferred by different people on this forum - full range, dipolar, transmission line, horn, etc.).
RHosch said:[snip]Jan,
As for the topic at hand, I think I agree with most everything that you are saying except for your conclusion
Ahhh.... SOO close..
OK, let me clarify my opinion. I agree that it is valuable to use human ' tools' on the condition that it is (double) blind and rigourously controlled and that the results are consistent and repeatable. That way, listening tests can really help guide development. But NOT some random guy calling up saying, hey guys, you better start using green caps because I tested it and it really makes a big difference. That for me is a no-brainer.
Jan Didden
PS I'm off-line tomorrow. Have a date. She's a theater artist... Am all exited!
Let me remind you some.... if you try, you can hear music, and no music playing.
When you in love, all noise disappear, all surround people evaporate...you listen music, you feel music.... no music playing, you mind enter another time dimension.... you loving girl lips move slowly... each normal second delays five or more times, each voice spell is heard and memorized, each small word........and you goes hearing music...no music playing... think o that...
Are the music that you can hear, the same as the equipment is playing... or the played music is only some reference.... alike a "sampling", sending informations to your brain....
If Brain decode our sonic informs, and we have feelings....maybe our feelings can change "The way you hear.... feeling sound"....
I like red caps very much... i think they are pretty.... and always i use it i think my sound became richer.....hummmmm...brain and feelings man.
Carlos
When you in love, all noise disappear, all surround people evaporate...you listen music, you feel music.... no music playing, you mind enter another time dimension.... you loving girl lips move slowly... each normal second delays five or more times, each voice spell is heard and memorized, each small word........and you goes hearing music...no music playing... think o that...
Are the music that you can hear, the same as the equipment is playing... or the played music is only some reference.... alike a "sampling", sending informations to your brain....
If Brain decode our sonic informs, and we have feelings....maybe our feelings can change "The way you hear.... feeling sound"....
I like red caps very much... i think they are pretty.... and always i use it i think my sound became richer.....hummmmm...brain and feelings man.
Carlos
Some objectivism and subjectivism.
Mr. County of Luxembourg, your are a very explendid man... what a brain!
I agreed your words, and i was shocked with that!, because all of us different in qualities and ideas.... could not find nothing wrong or not unclear enougth to start some meeting with you.... i am saying some i perceive i have a "tuned" mind related yours...This way, you talk, i listen, i see, and understanding normally have nothing to say.
I am living in the third world place of my third world country... we have here same strange people.... almost half of population dislike to learn everything, they always answer to your question with "Yes, i know that, or, i know how to do".... and they did not know and start in a try an error method, their pride is many times great than their intelligence.
Only a small part of this people is really inteligent, and the ones, are incredible in inteligence, their difference related to our southern people is clear, the superiority is vasty bigger.... but only few people.... others do not want to know if the car has motor or not.... if motor works hot or not.... only the fuel name to put when red lamp flashes... empty minds you find in thousands..because early days food they had not...and no one to make them think more than te obvious needs to survive.... in the desert we have many people this way, of course they have habilities and some sectional intelligence, spatial or some kind of special habilities with their body movements.... not so big environment influences related to know how inputs there... they are doing the same thing around 5 centuries... the same life.... find watter, have a food reserve... plant some in some season that one small and fast rain drops some minutes, and rare days.
Those people uses one metal triangle that is heated to make the metal sound, together with a drum and one "harmonica with push buttons"....
If you picked this man, bring him to our technologie society, and put him on test..... he will recognize the triangle playing together with some "heat metal" instruments, as marimba and others.....no matter the distortion level of the amplifiers that reproduce this sound... and others metals playing together...with distortions the type you want...he will recognize because this sound belongs to "his world".
What i am intended to say is:
If you unrespect this man.... and they are pride or themselves in one enormous amount, completely out of ratio, related their own "modern society values"... they are easy to be moved into a high stress feelings....need only to tell them they are ugly, or something alike...... and now!.... started the test, with this stressed guy, living under psychological pressure... "the difference, the cultural differences and the offense made, also the different environment will be a disaster in his perception"
I am sure this man will not perceive the triangle there!
If you tried to explain, triangle cannot be played by those "animals" that had offended him!.... will no be heard!!!
This way, color, shape, moment, environment, your mind health condition, your stress level..... and all real life situations will change deeply your perception.....our "brain sinthethizer" will not reproduce well related the samples of tones entering the ears, a big "system's circuits" will be concentrated in create racionalisms or denie answers related the offense.... some red ligth flashing...."overcharge"..."overcharge"....made some experiments in University, 1972, and could confirm, but with big error margin, this idea.
Carlos
Mr. County of Luxembourg, your are a very explendid man... what a brain!
I agreed your words, and i was shocked with that!, because all of us different in qualities and ideas.... could not find nothing wrong or not unclear enougth to start some meeting with you.... i am saying some i perceive i have a "tuned" mind related yours...This way, you talk, i listen, i see, and understanding normally have nothing to say.
I am living in the third world place of my third world country... we have here same strange people.... almost half of population dislike to learn everything, they always answer to your question with "Yes, i know that, or, i know how to do".... and they did not know and start in a try an error method, their pride is many times great than their intelligence.
Only a small part of this people is really inteligent, and the ones, are incredible in inteligence, their difference related to our southern people is clear, the superiority is vasty bigger.... but only few people.... others do not want to know if the car has motor or not.... if motor works hot or not.... only the fuel name to put when red lamp flashes... empty minds you find in thousands..because early days food they had not...and no one to make them think more than te obvious needs to survive.... in the desert we have many people this way, of course they have habilities and some sectional intelligence, spatial or some kind of special habilities with their body movements.... not so big environment influences related to know how inputs there... they are doing the same thing around 5 centuries... the same life.... find watter, have a food reserve... plant some in some season that one small and fast rain drops some minutes, and rare days.
Those people uses one metal triangle that is heated to make the metal sound, together with a drum and one "harmonica with push buttons"....
If you picked this man, bring him to our technologie society, and put him on test..... he will recognize the triangle playing together with some "heat metal" instruments, as marimba and others.....no matter the distortion level of the amplifiers that reproduce this sound... and others metals playing together...with distortions the type you want...he will recognize because this sound belongs to "his world".
What i am intended to say is:
If you unrespect this man.... and they are pride or themselves in one enormous amount, completely out of ratio, related their own "modern society values"... they are easy to be moved into a high stress feelings....need only to tell them they are ugly, or something alike...... and now!.... started the test, with this stressed guy, living under psychological pressure... "the difference, the cultural differences and the offense made, also the different environment will be a disaster in his perception"
I am sure this man will not perceive the triangle there!
If you tried to explain, triangle cannot be played by those "animals" that had offended him!.... will no be heard!!!
This way, color, shape, moment, environment, your mind health condition, your stress level..... and all real life situations will change deeply your perception.....our "brain sinthethizer" will not reproduce well related the samples of tones entering the ears, a big "system's circuits" will be concentrated in create racionalisms or denie answers related the offense.... some red ligth flashing...."overcharge"..."overcharge"....made some experiments in University, 1972, and could confirm, but with big error margin, this idea.
Carlos
Jan Didden, on proper audio amplifier listening testings
Good point, opinion, janneman
On this one my own opinion comes very close to yours.
Regards
... you know who ... and where
PS. My latest published SCHEMATIC (MOSFET Exicon Lateral with 2SK389 input)
is maybe even more blameless than Mister D. Self blameless amplifier. DS.
janneman said:
Good point, opinion, janneman
On this one my own opinion comes very close to yours.
Regards
... you know who ... and where
PS. My latest published SCHEMATIC (MOSFET Exicon Lateral with 2SK389 input)
is maybe even more blameless than Mister D. Self blameless amplifier. DS.
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