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Old 29th June 2002, 03:53 AM   #11
CHRIS8 is offline CHRIS8  United States
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As Bill stated, how you 'interpret'. A function of the brain's perception. Not attritbutal to specific distortions, nesecarily. See definition:

psychoacoustics : psy·cho·acous·tics
Pronunciation: "sI-kO-&-'kü-stiks
Function: noun plural but singular in construction
Date: 1948
: a branch of science dealing with hearing, the sensations produced by sounds, and the problems of communication
- psy·cho·acous·tic /-stik/ adjective

webster.com

-Chris
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Old 29th June 2002, 03:58 AM   #12
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mrfeedback:

What I said is what I meant.

If you want to hear something other than what I said you'll have to go elsewhere.

If untrue, I apologize but it seems to me I've had a run in with you in another forum. You just seem to bounce around, spreading mis-information and ignorance wherever you can. Aren't you the person who has Yamaha speakers and believes in directional wire?

You need to get a grip pal and perhaps even a life. An education wouldn't hurt either.
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Old 29th June 2002, 04:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Fitzpatrick
How the brain interprets or mis-interprets what is actually arriving at the ears. [/
Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
Or do you mean how listeners interpret minor changes in frequency response, noise and intermodulation products ?.
Methinks you two are looking at the same thing... just at different levels or pov.

There is a space of frequency, time, amplitude .... distortions of which we have only quantified a few slices. Our ear-brain system (and everyone's has to be at least a bit different one) pays attention to this whole space in varying degrees, but someone who has train themselves can discern more.

What we can measure is only a small part of this space so when it comes to the nth degree we have to trust our ear-brain which makes things tricky since everyone's is at least a little different.

Part of what makes it fun -- and frustrating -- everyone has to follow their own path.

dave
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Old 29th June 2002, 04:19 AM   #14
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Chris8,

That was a killer list of references... i hope there isn't gonna be a test :^)

Thanx.

dave
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Old 29th June 2002, 04:30 AM   #15
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planet10:

Sorry to report this but mrfeedback doesn't have a legitimate point of view.

As to your comments, all I can say is WHAT? Tell me true, are you stoned?

Harsh I am toward mrfeedback but someone has to do it.

Reminds me of a night out I once had. I'm in a club and the band is bad, really bad. But everyone is nice and polite and applauds. This reinforces the bands idea that they are good and this goes a long way to prevent them from getting better. Someone has to stand up and go BOO! Just call me an eager volunteer.
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Old 29th June 2002, 05:23 AM   #16
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In the last while i read a study -- can't quickly find the URL, perhaps someone else knows -- at some University in The Netherlands (or maybe Denmark or...) they did a double blind study of the effects of 3 different hifi systems on how relaxed people were after a listening session.

1/ analog>tubes>speakers
2/ digital>tubes>speakers
3/ digital>SS>speakers

the speakers were the same set in each case. The other bits were considered to be of similar quality (but how does one make that descion?).

People were most relaxed after listening to 1. Least relaxed (& sometimes less relaxed) after #3, number 2 was in the middle.

dave
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Old 29th June 2002, 05:51 AM   #17
CHRIS8 is offline CHRIS8  United States
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planet10.....

Due to lack of controls, I have to doubt the validity of these results. Their are various tube amplifiers with distinct responses, dependant on the net reactance of the impedance of the speakers with the output impedance of the amplifiers. As well, if those were low powered tube amplifiers then the 2nd order harmonic distortions would also be a contributing factor. With the similatiry of SS amps, they can typically be so similar that they can make no difference(with any competant design) in many cases. Also, the speakers involved have a greeat deal of impact, obviously. The frequency response varation with the tube amplifier could have easily influenced the results you cite, as i mentioned earlier. Now, if they specifically insured tight tolerances on FR and distortion maintaned under established human thresholds with both systems it may carry more weight. Also, maybe the AUDIBLE differnces caused by a tube vs ss were the objective? Then this would also be interesting. In any event, it would still be interesting to read the test if you can find it. So please....gimme gimme link!

-Chris
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Old 29th June 2002, 09:32 AM   #18
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BF - How the brain interprets or mis-interprets what is actually arriving at the ears.
mrfeedback - Or do you mean how listeners interpret minor changes in frequency response, noise and intermodulation products ?. - surely these are the causes of differing sounds in equipment.
BF - You need to get a grip pal and perhaps even a life. An education wouldn't hurt either.
Bill to Dave - As to your comments, all I can say is WHAT? Tell me true, are you stoned?

Dave, I'm tripping and you're stoned, supposedly, according to Bill.
Bill, there seems to be a lot of angst in you, even though everybody else here is being perfectly polite.
There is no need to resort to swearing, and derisive personal attacks - period.
.......or should I mention that in the other thread that you referred to, that YOU believe that audio polarity is not audible ? LOL.
My interpretation of that is that you really do not completely understand the subject of audio - perhaps YOU need to get educated PAL !.
I am not setting out to be rude to you, as you have done to me, but really Bill your lack of knowledge in some aspects at least, is becoming glaringly obvious.

CHRIS8 , thanks for such a list of references, however the arguements supporting blind testings tending toward 50/50 distribution are generally flawed methods unfortunately IMO.
The errors in such testing as I see it are that the time periods are much too short, and the number of repetitions too few, for the average listener.
When test listening for very fine sonic changes, repetitions and time are required to realize correlations and differences in order to make a reliable opinion.
Also the listening environments are usually not optimum, and adding extra switching boxes adds another element (circuit stages) into the system, and is indeed likely to mask some subtle effects that would be otherwise more apparent.
In blind testing with a room mate, after weeks learning the individual sounds caused by different interconnects and on music we both knew, we were both able to 100% reliably discern which pair of five interconnects was in use, and in an instant.
This takes practice, and is a learned hearing skill, but when in your own comfortable environment, the ears and brain system can be a reliable measuring/discriminating tool.


: a branch of science dealing with hearing, the sensations produced by sounds, and the problems of communication

The sensations produced by sounds ? - does this mean the emotions induced tempo, key, intonation etc as is used so extensively to portray moods in movie soundtracks ?.
Or the emotions induced by distortion mechanisms, be they noise, THD, IMD, frequency response abberations, jitter etc ?.
Problems of communication ? - the above covers this too.

I do not believe that fine differences between equipments cannot be measured, rather that the appropriate tests are not being performed.
http://www.softcopy.co.uk/web_data/data%5CEW404.htm - "THD is meaningless .. Anthony New, June 2000, p440" (scroll down to bottom of the page) is valueable reading and will give some insights into the causes of fine audible differences.

Regards Eric.
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Old 29th June 2002, 04:40 PM   #19
CHRIS8 is offline CHRIS8  United States
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"that YOU believe that audio polarity is not audible ? LOL."

With test signals using waveforms with a clipped signal on 180 degrees of the cycle, but with normal, or unique phenemona, such as a higher amplitude on the other half of the cycle with this signal played steady state....yes...absolute polarity has been shown to be audible. With music? The tests I have seen performed resulted in 50/50. Neither confirming or refuting an audible difference in music program playback.

"The errors in such testing as I see it are that the time periods are much too short, and the number of repetitions too few, for the average listener."

This is an error type that is heavily discussed by Levanthol in his AES papers. And he specifies methods to accumulate accurate results. But, methodology of the blind testing is a problem, but their are highly accurate methods to aquire results. The problem: cost.

"we were both able to 100% reliably discern which pair of five interconnects was in use, and in an instant"

An unsubstantiatable claim. I have heard it 1001 times before.

"sensations produced by sounds"

The feeling/sensations produced BY sounds. Meaning, variable effects on the senses, from a control sound source. This could, for example, mean the study of effects of a controlled level of distortions in a signal, to observe the effects on various people. Bascily, any controlled sound, and the resultant effect on the test subject.

"I do not believe that fine differences between equipments cannot be measured, rather that the appropriate tests are not being performed."

In many circumstances, I completely agree. However, you must still find a correlation of the measurement and audibility via controlled blind testing to establish a benchmark. Still, this will be of limited use too, since effects a multiple paramaters may have different pschoacoustic effects. A daunting and expensive task. But many paramaters have benchmarks already established, some of which were being discussed early on in this thread.

-Chris
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Old 29th June 2002, 05:08 PM   #20
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For the record.

I never said I believe that absoulte polarity was inaudible. I said that I could probably find a reference that said that. Later I stated that I didn't know because I never tried it but that I may do so even though I might be skeptical.
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