" Re: As Paul Harvy says............ Post #273
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Please read the WHOLE data sheet, there is more on stability and layout.
I can also read: "*Optional components dependent upon specific designrequirements. Refer to the Application Information section for more information."
My experience show that they are not required in my application. You have no experience, as you've built only one amp.
EDIT: I would have post it in the other thread, but then it would be out of context. I leave it to moderators to use the most suitable approach.
Last edited by Peter Daniel on 05-24-2004 at 05:08 pm"
Who else on forum thinks I have no amplifier design experience, and that building a gain clone from the data sheet without paying attention to most of it is experience in amplifier design. Oh wait a minute ....... I seem to remember him saying he wasn't an amplifier designer rnot to long ago. Now he seems to think he is qualified to decide if I am. Whats wrong with this picture? Or maybe I'm confused and he wants me to design gain clones on the forum........
anybody?
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Please read the WHOLE data sheet, there is more on stability and layout.
I can also read: "*Optional components dependent upon specific designrequirements. Refer to the Application Information section for more information."
My experience show that they are not required in my application. You have no experience, as you've built only one amp.
EDIT: I would have post it in the other thread, but then it would be out of context. I leave it to moderators to use the most suitable approach.
Last edited by Peter Daniel on 05-24-2004 at 05:08 pm"
Who else on forum thinks I have no amplifier design experience, and that building a gain clone from the data sheet without paying attention to most of it is experience in amplifier design. Oh wait a minute ....... I seem to remember him saying he wasn't an amplifier designer rnot to long ago. Now he seems to think he is qualified to decide if I am. Whats wrong with this picture? Or maybe I'm confused and he wants me to design gain clones on the forum........
anybody?
For JP and Till, warning 3.8 Mb:
http://www.20six.nl/pub/coolll/nederland.duitsland.mpeg
Nothing to do with audio, but this is anything else...
Sorry to be off topic, was editing my post in the previous one when it was closed..
http://www.20six.nl/pub/coolll/nederland.duitsland.mpeg
Nothing to do with audio, but this is anything else...
Sorry to be off topic, was editing my post in the previous one when it was closed..
I don't drink beer.
"We all know, and Peter also, its easy to make you upset with a little provokation..."
A little provocation huh?
"As I said before, it's not about Zobels or chip amps, or Fred and the gang. It's about how we will feel a year from now, browsing this place." -PD
I don't think we will have to wait a year or even a week to see how we'll feel. The guys that have been here for awhile know exactly what the problems are and have stated them many times. I have a pretty good idea what the forum will look like in year if trends continue as they are ............
"We all know, and Peter also, its easy to make you upset with a little provokation..."
A little provocation huh?
"As I said before, it's not about Zobels or chip amps, or Fred and the gang. It's about how we will feel a year from now, browsing this place." -PD
I don't think we will have to wait a year or even a week to see how we'll feel. The guys that have been here for awhile know exactly what the problems are and have stated them many times. I have a pretty good idea what the forum will look like in year if trends continue as they are ............
All i'm going to say is this.. Both of you have built a helluva lot more amplifiers than I have.. I'm certainly not going to get inbetween the two of you going at each other. From what I have read, Fred certainly seems qualified from a technical standpoint to determine whether or not a zobel is critical to performance. Peter, on the other hand, may have empirical data to prove otherwise.
All I'd like to say is that I wish this whole thread would end.
Fred -- you're a respected designer with nothing to prove, at least to me, and probably to most of the other people on this board. If you feel like you need to prove it in a thread, please take the suggestion above and go get a beer.. No need to torment yourself based on what someone says to you who doesn't have the same engineering background that you do.
You've given everyone the warning that the zobel is "The right way" to do things. You can't make them do it. You can't change Peter's mind. All you can hope to do it take a high ground and explain in laymans terms (or maybe higher, but for me, layman's terms are best.. I have the EE skills of a racoon chewing on telephone wires). Once youv'e done that, it's pretty much up to whomever is building it to do what they want. You can't force people to do what they don't understand, or do understand and choose to ignore. If a DIYer nukes their speakers or has problems, they've nobody to blame but themselves. If Peter's amps do it, I'm sure he'll be getting calls real quick
Peter -- You have empirical data that states contrary to what Fred is showing. Perhaps your amplifiers have not been tried with really nasty speakers/cables/loads. All I can say is just be thankful that someone who has the qualifications that Fred does cares enough to provide input on your designs, and possibly help you to improve them. Fred may seem more of an alarmist to someone who's a gung-ho DIYer, but I'm sure he has plenty of experience to back up what he's telling you.
Regardless, guys, you both contribute too much to these boards to continue on bickering like school children. It adds nothing to the content of the boards, and wastes bandwidth (mental and otherwise!).
Personally, i'd love to see a FD implementation of a LM3875/3886/chipamp. Nothing tweaky or unncessary, just how you would design it if you were to do it, and see the a chipamp done from your perspective. I know we're unlikely to see it due to your friend building some amps, but for those of us that are DIY and don't buy commercial gear, maybe you could entice us with something nifty and different from all the stripped-down-bare-minimum designs. Who knows, maybe you'll create the non-gainclone chipamp movement
All I'd like to say is that I wish this whole thread would end.
Fred -- you're a respected designer with nothing to prove, at least to me, and probably to most of the other people on this board. If you feel like you need to prove it in a thread, please take the suggestion above and go get a beer.. No need to torment yourself based on what someone says to you who doesn't have the same engineering background that you do.
You've given everyone the warning that the zobel is "The right way" to do things. You can't make them do it. You can't change Peter's mind. All you can hope to do it take a high ground and explain in laymans terms (or maybe higher, but for me, layman's terms are best.. I have the EE skills of a racoon chewing on telephone wires). Once youv'e done that, it's pretty much up to whomever is building it to do what they want. You can't force people to do what they don't understand, or do understand and choose to ignore. If a DIYer nukes their speakers or has problems, they've nobody to blame but themselves. If Peter's amps do it, I'm sure he'll be getting calls real quick
Peter -- You have empirical data that states contrary to what Fred is showing. Perhaps your amplifiers have not been tried with really nasty speakers/cables/loads. All I can say is just be thankful that someone who has the qualifications that Fred does cares enough to provide input on your designs, and possibly help you to improve them. Fred may seem more of an alarmist to someone who's a gung-ho DIYer, but I'm sure he has plenty of experience to back up what he's telling you.
Regardless, guys, you both contribute too much to these boards to continue on bickering like school children. It adds nothing to the content of the boards, and wastes bandwidth (mental and otherwise!).
Personally, i'd love to see a FD implementation of a LM3875/3886/chipamp. Nothing tweaky or unncessary, just how you would design it if you were to do it, and see the a chipamp done from your perspective. I know we're unlikely to see it due to your friend building some amps, but for those of us that are DIY and don't buy commercial gear, maybe you could entice us with something nifty and different from all the stripped-down-bare-minimum designs. Who knows, maybe you'll create the non-gainclone chipamp movement
to Zobel or not to Zobel....
Sure a Zobel makes proof against all sorts of stability issues, but there are also those who have made a stand that they won't use one because they don't like what it sounds like -- NAIM is the one that comes to mind... (they do specifiy no exotic speaker cable, because the amp is designed with the cable providing the funtionality of the zobel)
Unlike a NAIM, which will go "pop" if you abuse it such, the SPIKE will protect the LM in most cases.
So if your amp doesn't oscillate in the system it is in, do you need a Zobel? No. If it does, then you do. Often, just changing to different speaker cable (ie zip cord) will provide the zobel function.
dave
Sure a Zobel makes proof against all sorts of stability issues, but there are also those who have made a stand that they won't use one because they don't like what it sounds like -- NAIM is the one that comes to mind... (they do specifiy no exotic speaker cable, because the amp is designed with the cable providing the funtionality of the zobel)
Unlike a NAIM, which will go "pop" if you abuse it such, the SPIKE will protect the LM in most cases.
So if your amp doesn't oscillate in the system it is in, do you need a Zobel? No. If it does, then you do. Often, just changing to different speaker cable (ie zip cord) will provide the zobel function.
dave
Hi,
Now you mention it, yes...that's it. Thanks, Dave.
Anyway, you could turn my remark about it the other way around and also wonder why on earth cable designers are putting out such high capacitance loudspeaker cable...at the risk of sending many amps into instablility?
What exactly is it that this does? Why would you want such a cable in the first place?
Let me tell you that you can tackle the problem they try to "solve" in a different way without causing instability problems in the first place.
Maybe the amp wouldn't measure too well with it but then CDPs don't measure all that great in that area either...
Just my two cents,
Now you mention it, yes...that's it. Thanks, Dave.
Anyway, you could turn my remark about it the other way around and also wonder why on earth cable designers are putting out such high capacitance loudspeaker cable...at the risk of sending many amps into instablility?
What exactly is it that this does? Why would you want such a cable in the first place?
Let me tell you that you can tackle the problem they try to "solve" in a different way without causing instability problems in the first place.
Maybe the amp wouldn't measure too well with it but then CDPs don't measure all that great in that area either...
Just my two cents,
Hi,
Hmmm...sounds like the one Monitor Audio marketed this side of the pond in the Seventies; the shorter runs were flat Litz, the 10m+ came in round braids.
I once hooked it up on a simple Denon solid-state amp and it popped its fused before the warm-up was even started....Very powerful cable that...
It did work well enough with tube amps though...see, there's where OPTs come in handy...
Cheers,
Hmmm...sounds like the one Monitor Audio marketed this side of the pond in the Seventies; the shorter runs were flat Litz, the 10m+ came in round braids.
I once hooked it up on a simple Denon solid-state amp and it popped its fused before the warm-up was even started....Very powerful cable that...
It did work well enough with tube amps though...see, there's where OPTs come in handy...
Cheers,
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