Your set up sounds near ideal. From Linkwitz's description of the LX mini I think it goes through a number or transitions as frequency rises from monopole to cardioid and omni. He also says it's very good near field, something BasicHIFI might be interested in. Space behind the speakers definitely helps with the illusion of depth, probably due to well delayed reflections off the front wall, I've noticed this with my dipoles. Having said that, some think it may also be due to there actually being space there and we psychoacoustically imagine it as a source.
I have my speakers perpendicular to the side walls, so that I listen off axis and I'm closer than I would be in an equilateral setup, in fact some of the best imagery is when I'm almost between the speakers
I have my speakers perpendicular to the side walls, so that I listen off axis and I'm closer than I would be in an equilateral setup, in fact some of the best imagery is when I'm almost between the speakers
I think you're right about the transitions from monopole to cardioid to omni, but I have very minimal knowledge and understanding of these things.
I too wonder about the psychoacoustics associated with that empty space behind the speakers.
It sounds like you have a neat setup too Scott. Dipoles, are very interesting. Are yours open baffle?
I too wonder about the psychoacoustics associated with that empty space behind the speakers.
It sounds like you have a neat setup too Scott. Dipoles, are very interesting. Are yours open baffle?
Thanks for the pictures. Those Linkwitz tubes were always very interesting, with the upward firing woofer. Do you need the sub-woofers as well?
The art of Stereo is not something that is well understood by non-audiophiles I would think. My father bought a Technics rack mounted system with the two foot tall speakers, and we had them situated on the floor right next to the cabinet, sometimes a little apart. Come to think of it that was the way it was in the Hi Fi store, and no salesman ever tried to sell it to us based on imaging or stereo effect. It could play loud, had a lot of bass, and best of all, had a nine band graphic equaliser. Until recent times, and until I got on this forum, except for headphones, I was not aware of any stereo effects or how to set up for this effect. Stereo imaging is never a selling point, not then, not now, at least for consumers. Then they came out with the blue tooth boom boxes playing Mp3 over Blue Tooth. Progress.
Once again, with my current modest set up, if I sit between the speakers, at about 70 cm, I get an nice enveloping sound, and I can locate the drums - most curiously, on "Main Course" vintage 1975, by the Bee Gees, I can locate the drum kit on the left side, however at one part of the song a kind of disembodied cymbals makes itself heard on centre channel.
In our search for the best sound, is it fair to say that a small set of full range speakers with a rounded cabinet is best for imaging? Or is there no hard and fast rule here?
There is a nice video on "The History of Stereo" apparently the first stereo was over phone lines with a left, centre and right microphone.
The art of Stereo is not something that is well understood by non-audiophiles I would think. My father bought a Technics rack mounted system with the two foot tall speakers, and we had them situated on the floor right next to the cabinet, sometimes a little apart. Come to think of it that was the way it was in the Hi Fi store, and no salesman ever tried to sell it to us based on imaging or stereo effect. It could play loud, had a lot of bass, and best of all, had a nine band graphic equaliser. Until recent times, and until I got on this forum, except for headphones, I was not aware of any stereo effects or how to set up for this effect. Stereo imaging is never a selling point, not then, not now, at least for consumers. Then they came out with the blue tooth boom boxes playing Mp3 over Blue Tooth. Progress.
Once again, with my current modest set up, if I sit between the speakers, at about 70 cm, I get an nice enveloping sound, and I can locate the drums - most curiously, on "Main Course" vintage 1975, by the Bee Gees, I can locate the drum kit on the left side, however at one part of the song a kind of disembodied cymbals makes itself heard on centre channel.
In our search for the best sound, is it fair to say that a small set of full range speakers with a rounded cabinet is best for imaging? Or is there no hard and fast rule here?
There is a nice video on "The History of Stereo" apparently the first stereo was over phone lines with a left, centre and right microphone.
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Yes, they are what I prefer, pedantically, to call widebands as opposed to fullrange
(Jordan Eikonas) I support them low down with OB (U-frame) woofers (subs) which are against and perpendicular to the side walls. I'm presently experimenting with how to run these Stereo or Mono Subs Xover at ~100Hz
How and where is the crossover to your subs, have you tried them perpendicular to the wall?
Most people don't know or care what Hi-Fi stereo can do, thankfully we aren't most people
When siting that close the direct sound is almost completely overwhelming the reflected sound, this can give you a certain type of pinpoint imagery
There are a number of different ways to get very similar results, that would be one of the simpler ones, but they're also different kinds of imaging, and then it comes down to personal preference
I was most people until recently, I just did not know. I am looking at the detail and imaging now and asking the question "Where have you been all my life?"
I had the most interesting experience in stereo imaging a few hours ago. I have set my speakers up at ear level on the wall over my desk, as I said 70 cm away from me. I sit to one side of the desk to save space, but I moved the chair over to the middle and listened to the Eagles, for a change, the Hotel California album.
Even better than headphones, I felt a sense of space, I realize that the recording re-creating the live studio experience. I could not only localize the instruments, but Don Henley standing there 10 inches tall right in front of me. The sense of space of ambiance gives a sense of realism to the entire musical experience, and allows me to hear sounds never heard before because they are spatially separated. Vocals and harmonies are very beautiful.
Not sure why one set of cymbals is mixed extreme right, the drummer's right left arm cannot be that long, and it is unnerving.
Listening to "After Dark" from 1980 - it is different, a sort of wider, artificial mix, but pleasant no less, just like on headphones.
So I listened to stereo for the first time, really, makes me sorry about all that wasted time, and money.
Some articles here that might interest you Linkwitz-Publications
Crossfeed circuits for headphones can help with spaciousness/imaging and getting the sound "out of the head"
Crossfeed circuits for headphones can help with spaciousness/imaging and getting the sound "out of the head"
I only use headphones if I have no alternative - and this is the reason why. My music collapses into a mostly-inside-the-back-of-my-head sound stage when listening with headphones.
Some years ago, I recorded and mixed one of my songs using only headphones, because I did a lot of it late at night, after my wife was asleep. The resulting mix sounded great on headphones, but, to my horror, quite awful on stereo loudspeakers. It turned out I had fallen into a classic newbie trap, one which has shocked many novice mix engineers. To wit: headphones and speakers create extremely different sounds, particularly when it comes to stereo imaging, and deep bass.
Those Eagles recordings are some of my favourites when it comes to "air" and that sense of ambient space. I don't know whether what is on the recordings is actually accurate, or larger than life, created with careful doses of electronic reverb and delay. But whatever it is, I like it very much.
I think it's worth mentioning that the artistic choices made by the band complement this airiness in the recording ambience. The Eagles were masters at not stepping on each other's toes sonically, creating space for each other musically speaking, even though there were quite a few members in the band.
Unfortunately some band members were constantly stepping on each other's toes everywhere except in the music itself...and there is a supreme irony there. So cohesive in their sound, so utterly at odds with each other in their personal lives!
I remember that moment for me - I grew up with the family sharing one (mono) AM radio. Then one day I heard a large boombox in an electronics store: my first stereo music, the first time I'd heard a cassette deck with Dolby B noise reduction, and the first time I'd heard music with that much power, that much extension in bass, and that much extension in treble. It was a shocking revelation as to just how bad that AM radio sound had been, all along!
That was a long time ago, and the sound from a stereo cassette boombox would not impress me today. But the memory of that first encounter with vastly superior sound quality (compared to anything I'd heard before) remains with me.
You might find this true story about stereo imaging funny: I have a relative who, among other things, boasts about his Hi-Fi, his music collection, and his exceptional hearing abilities. After many years with no contact, I got to visit him, and he turned on his stereo system for me to admire, and boasted about how good it was.
I didn't have the heart to tell him his left channel was dead...utterly silent. He'd been listening to only the right channel for who knows how long, and had never even noticed!
-Gnobuddy
Yes, they are what I prefer, pedantically, to call widebands as opposed to fullrange
I'm presently experimenting with how to run these Stereo or Mono Subs Xover at ~100Hz
How and where is the crossover to your subs, have you tried them perpendicular to the wall?
Good thread about Stereo or Mono subs. That will be a good read when I get to it.
I have not tried my subs perpendicular to the wall. I should try that just for fun. It might increase the boundary loading a bit. In the end, its finding the best compromise / trade off I think.
My Dad had built some nice transmission-line 3-way speakers in the 1970's. They would have a nice bass response when close to rear wall, or corner loaded; but they would image much better when pulled out from the walls. -Seemed like a terrible trade off to me, so I built other speakers.
So my subs are low-pass with an LR 24/ octave (I think) at 60Hz. Subs are in Stereo mode. I can clearly hear drums (toms) that pan from right to left, but I could hear this equally well when I had one mono-sub crossed at 100Hz.
I've been curious to try an H, U or W baffle sub, to see if I can clean up the bass a little. As is, I'm very pleased with results. Very clean and punchy IMHO. I may be well to look at room treatments, bass traps etc to find any improvements with my existing closed-box subs.
It's recommended for me to keep subs as close as possible to LX Minis. I think the timing of the kick from the sub and the slap from the mains need to arrive at the ear at the same time. Really I think of LX-Mini + Subs as more of a 3 way speaker, as opposed to a 2-way with subs.
Have you ever played a low-frequency soundwave, while scooting the sub across the floor, with an observer in the listening position to say when/where the bass sounds the best?
Hello BasicHIFI. I enjoy reading about positioning your nearfield monitors. It sounds like you're having fun. I like the Eagles and BeeGees too.
I really don't think subwoofers are "necessary", but I sure like them. Really most music content is higher in frequency than we think. I was shocked when I learned that the fundamental of a kickdrum is 100 Hz, and the harmonics of that fundamental are even higher. In my case, LX Minis have plenty enough bass extension for most rock and jazz music. The subs do lighten their load a little though, and it's easier to turn it up louder, without having the midrange driver working hard on the low bass.
Full range speakers with rounded cabinets may work well. I'm imagining some similar designs I have seen, and read about how the round cabinet minimized the bafflestep correction needed in the crossover,... something like that if I recall. Looked beyond expensive for me to buy, and beyond my woodworking skills to build.
Thank goodness, you're right. There's many paths to reach the summit, and while we often discuss the merits of one path versus the other, in the end, Stereo will be found in the ears of the beholder. 😀
I almost built some frugal horns, or pencils once. (I still might,.. someday) Those designs are pretty narrow, and I hear neat things about them, but I've never heard them. I liked them because it seemed to me it would be a good first build, just one driver, no crossover to worry about, etc.
The whole open baffle speaker concept interests me a lot as well, especially with how quickly one can implement crossover and room correction with DSP. I've used a measurement mic and REW a few times. It was fun, but I have a lot to learn in that arena.
To me I find that regardless of room size or driver sensitivity, driver surface area is really important to mimic sound reproduction & as for dynamics nothing can beat front loaded horns with compression drivers, unfortunately their size really does not make it WAF for many of us. For WB drivers would be great to find a really good 10 inch unit. This is my personal thoughts & some experience.
Cheers
Cheers
I think surface area wins over excursion every time, and similarly to horns, due to better, easier coupling (lower impedance) to the air and generally lower distortion from minimal excursion. Perhaps another reason low volume, near field listening can be satisfying especially once we've given out ears time to adjust.
I have a relative who used to spend more on hi-fi than me. He seemed to buy new speakers every few years, and had astonishingly thick speaker cables (possibly biwired too). One day when I was visiting he asked me to listen carefully because something was not quite right. He was a bit shocked when I told him he had speaker cables inverted on one channel - it had been like this for a few weeks, apparently. No bass, and big smear where the stereo image should be.Gnobuddy said:
I am still getting over the shock of the phantom opera above my desk.
Some measurements and experiments: I once again sat in front of my speakers and took measurements - mid cone of speaker to left ear 87 cm, right speaker cone to right ear - 8 cm and thereabouts.
The real shock was measuring the distance between speaker cone mid points : 87 cm. So I was sitting in the equilateral triangle.
I have a few centimeters of leeway left and right, back and forth may be less. What I have read of Linkwitz makes much more sense now.
I did a little reading about the Eagles. Turns out HC was produced by an engineer by the name of Bill Szymczyk
It's really worth quoting, as it is relevant to the discussion:
Bill Szymczyk
Legendary Music Producer Steps Out of Fast Lane - American Profile
What happens if you move to far? This could be one of the problems with listening so close, the sweet spot can be very narrow and you aren't getting many of the reflections which can help expand the image. The speakers may also have very little dispersion
BasicHIFI,
If I recall correctly, your monitors are on your desktop. If you're inclined to experiment more with speaker placement, do try sitting further back as Scott suggests. Also, I'm wondering if there would be an audible difference found by laying a towel or two flat across the desktop. Maybe put a couple of pillows behind the speakers up against the wall.
I'm just curious if trying to minimize some of the early reflections would improve, degrade, or make no difference to what you hear. -it might be a fun experiment
If I recall correctly, your monitors are on your desktop. If you're inclined to experiment more with speaker placement, do try sitting further back as Scott suggests. Also, I'm wondering if there would be an audible difference found by laying a towel or two flat across the desktop. Maybe put a couple of pillows behind the speakers up against the wall.
I'm just curious if trying to minimize some of the early reflections would improve, degrade, or make no difference to what you hear. -it might be a fun experiment
Hi Scott,
I tried putting subs perpendicular to the wall. I couldn't tell if it made a difference or not.
I expected to find a little increase in bass from boundary loading, but bass seemed to have the same amplitude. Also I thought that maybe bass placement might be blurred in the image a little due to more wall reflections, but I didn't notice that either. I'm surprised, because I thought that psychoaccoustically I would find what I expected to find, and then be unable to know if my findings were imagined or real. -I moved the subs back to having an axis parallel to the mains speakers, for visual/asthetic reasons.
I listened to Chicago "25 Or 6 To 4". After a few bars, the drummer starts really nailing the kick-drum at a high rate, maybe 3 beats per second. I like this kickdrum because it sounds very natural to me. It's bass, but not overly emphasized.. just right in my opinion. In both listening arrangements this kickdrum had the right amplitude in relation to other instruments, and clearly placed at 10 o'clock on the soundstage.
Do you know/like this song?
Recently I've been rediscovering a lot of music that I have not paid attention to for 20 years!
So like me you have to listen to all your favorite songs all over again. Well, someone has to do it.
I for one am looking forward to rediscovery.My speakers are on -wall, above ear height when sitting down. Looks like everything has changed, I should mount them on stands away from rear wall, and angle them.
Lots of reflections in the room, so the room is the cabinet? The room is the enclosure? In which case the usual damping, etc needs to be applied.
Yes, really enjoying lots of music, some new, some old. BTW, Dire Straits is one reputed to have great dynamics, that was not squashed in the studio.
You ask, The room is the cabinet? Sorry I don't follow exactly, if you're referring to the room you are sitting in, or the room inside your monitor-loudspeakers.
You ask, The room is the cabinet? Sorry I don't follow exactly, if you're referring to the room you are sitting in, or the room inside your monitor-loudspeakers.