Some Experiments
I ran one or two experiments myself. The first one was to listen to music, this time Tom Coster's "From Me to You" on the Sony ESS System Reciever here at home. I first turned up the volume so that my Android based JBL tools registered 82 db or so at one metre, on average. This was pretty loud. I noted the levels of bass abd drum, quite audible, but not too prominent, possibly being mixed that way. This was with loudness off and neutral tone controls. Next, I lowered the volume to 72 dB at 1 metre and tried to duplicate or re-produce the balance I heard at the higher levels. The Loudness control proved much too boomy for this purpose, and I ended up with the tone controls adjusted so that treble was about 10% and bass about 40% of the full amount. This was somewhat of an eye opener for me, since the I always had great faith in the loudness control as being effective in creating a balanced sound. Listening at 82 dB really removed all doubt as to what was going on.
So this is what seems to be hapenning - as I have heard in real life, and trying out on a drum kit once or twice in my life, real life drums are rather flat and somewhat boring, but very powerful. The cymbals are something else, thick, full bodied in their sound and very difficult to reproduce it seems. Just drop a tin lid on the floor and you get the effect, or even use a tambourine. So real life drums are sort of laid back. Consumer aduio equipment tends to overcompensate for the lack of bass that headphones, elevator music and department store DJs by showing off their bass. There is even a round BlueTooth speaker or two that emphazise muddy bass in order to impress with quantity and not quality. Consumers including myself, used to transistor radios and plastic tape players used to overcompensate for a lifetime of bass starvation and used to turn it up for chest pounding vibrations that seemed to be the point of it all. In later years I have come to value truth over vicarious pleasure.
So there you are, we have all got it wrong. Excess is bad, balance is good.
I ran one or two experiments myself. The first one was to listen to music, this time Tom Coster's "From Me to You" on the Sony ESS System Reciever here at home. I first turned up the volume so that my Android based JBL tools registered 82 db or so at one metre, on average. This was pretty loud. I noted the levels of bass abd drum, quite audible, but not too prominent, possibly being mixed that way. This was with loudness off and neutral tone controls. Next, I lowered the volume to 72 dB at 1 metre and tried to duplicate or re-produce the balance I heard at the higher levels. The Loudness control proved much too boomy for this purpose, and I ended up with the tone controls adjusted so that treble was about 10% and bass about 40% of the full amount. This was somewhat of an eye opener for me, since the I always had great faith in the loudness control as being effective in creating a balanced sound. Listening at 82 dB really removed all doubt as to what was going on.
So this is what seems to be hapenning - as I have heard in real life, and trying out on a drum kit once or twice in my life, real life drums are rather flat and somewhat boring, but very powerful. The cymbals are something else, thick, full bodied in their sound and very difficult to reproduce it seems. Just drop a tin lid on the floor and you get the effect, or even use a tambourine. So real life drums are sort of laid back. Consumer aduio equipment tends to overcompensate for the lack of bass that headphones, elevator music and department store DJs by showing off their bass. There is even a round BlueTooth speaker or two that emphazise muddy bass in order to impress with quantity and not quality. Consumers including myself, used to transistor radios and plastic tape players used to overcompensate for a lifetime of bass starvation and used to turn it up for chest pounding vibrations that seemed to be the point of it all. In later years I have come to value truth over vicarious pleasure.
So there you are, we have all got it wrong. Excess is bad, balance is good.
Given 83dB is effectively THX reference levels I would expect that to be a pretty good level to mix at. Too loud for me in the domestic environment.
What I don't understand is where the OP is coming from. Unless you are sitting 3ft from the drum kit you won't hit the very high SPLs he is talking about. You don't do that with live music. I listen to orchestral music and, although the violinists need to wear ear plugs, out in the audience the average level is not that high. Peaks of course can be, but that's a slightly different issue and most recordings don't maintain all of that.
Inside a piano you get peaks of 130dB, but you wouldn't listen with your head inside a steinway!
If I may explain, what I am getting at is simply the question whether we can get true Hi Fi at lower listening levels. The answer seems to be yes, which is good. The other thing we need to know is how, and that also seems to be getting answered.
I admit was incorrect to take the average listener's position as in front of the band, or in the front row, after all, it is possible to sit back and listen to the music, in this equilateral triangle arrangement that is recommended.
I got a little mixed up from my listening to drum and bass samples, recorded close up, which I used for testing my speakers, and the final music production, which is different, and a little less powerful.
I admit was incorrect to take the average listener's position as in front of the band, or in the front row, after all, it is possible to sit back and listen to the music, in this equilateral triangle arrangement that is recommended.
I got a little mixed up from my listening to drum and bass samples, recorded close up, which I used for testing my speakers, and the final music production, which is different, and a little less powerful.
No. You need bigger instruments for bass because the wavelength is longer.armarra1 said:
No. Skin effect has little effect for audio frequencies. You would only see it damage the music if the speaker leads were long enough to already damage the music anyway. Even then, nothing gets throttle by anything else: skin effect is a linear process.
Yes the wavelength is longer but a 6 inch speaker cannot produce the 30hz frequencies with enough volume so size is required to counter the fall off of volume as we move away from the ear"s central lostening frequency.
The skin effect might be linear however ther is only so much area for the spectrum to get through the wire so certain frequencies will get attenuated. Thats my point size does matter wgen frequency spectrum is under consideration.
music so low that you could have a quiet conversatuon and not have to compete with the music...that's quite low.
No. Even if the ear's response was flat we would still have trouble developing enough bass from a small speaker - simply because the speaker is small. Wavelength is the issue. The LF falloff in ear sensitivity just makes the problem worse.armarra1 said:
No. You are merely repeating audio myths you have heard somewhere else. Wires are linear, so there is no problem putting the whole spectrum through them. One frequency does not block another frequency, skin effect or no skin effect.
Ah ok. Nothing wrong with wanting a system that can reproduce that, but it's not live music per se and most recordings are not done with such a wide dynamic range (sadly). There are so many things modern digital systems could do that they don't its a shame.
Thanks for the look and correction! Sorry, when I said full range, I meant full frequency range for a pair of 2-ways and subs. Here is an article on the setup, minus the subs, which is the next article I plan to write: Audiolense Digital Loudspeaker and Room Correction Software Walkthrough - CA Academy - Computer Audiophile
Wrt to high fidelity sound at low SPL's, aside from having the speakers able to reproduce full frequency range, it is all in the loudness compensation. If you keep reading the thread here, as an example: NEW: Loudness You will see that the idea is to calibrate the loudness level. Meaning that at 83 dB SPL (i.e. reference level) there is no loudness compensation, but as the level (SPL) goes down, loudness compensation kicks in and is dynamic. Meaning as the SPL decreases, the amount of bass and treble boost increases as per the ISO 226:2003 curves, which is a standard you can look up.
With loudness calibrated, everything still sounds "right" to our ears as the SPL decreases. Works like a charm for me. Hope that helps.
Cheers, Mitch
No. DC isnt affected .. but you know that I suspect.Does the wire have to have infinite thickness to pass DC? I'm confuzzed
This is what I don't understand, I'm asking you to be clearer about what you mean. If the high frequencies aren't being affected by the lower frequencies because the wire is not thick enough, then you've lost me.
Skin depth is a real effect although only of any real consequence at radio frequencies and above or very long lengths such as telephone cables etc due to the attenuation that can be caused relative to lower frequencies. The higher frequencies are not affected by the lower ones which is what it sounded like you were saying, this is why I wanted to be clear exactly what you were saying