I have started this thread to get rid of some of the snake oil. We, as DIY'ers should not have to resort to that kind of stuff, and should actually be able to get rid of a lot of it.
I simply cant understand why people keep on listening to people from the audio industry. 99% of the snake oil is generated by the industry and the magazines thats in the pocket of the industry as well.
If people are trying to sell you something ....wouldnt it be a natural reaction to be just a little critical about what they claim?
Magura
I simply cant understand why people keep on listening to people from the audio industry. 99% of the snake oil is generated by the industry and the magazines thats in the pocket of the industry as well.
If people are trying to sell you something ....wouldnt it be a natural reaction to be just a little critical about what they claim?
Magura
True enough.
I think a lot of people get into DIY after discovering that commercial products could not offer the sound they were seeking at an affordable price point. So for many, I think they are starting with a non-technical background, and the accumulated indoctrination of years of reading magazine reviews and psuedo-science advertising material. Having to un-learn all that takes time, and of course, some discussion with more experienced DIY-ers and Engineers etc... which is precisely where this forum comes in, and probably a major reason we keep seeing posts about snake-oil here. I think it's healthy.
Just my
I think a lot of people get into DIY after discovering that commercial products could not offer the sound they were seeking at an affordable price point. So for many, I think they are starting with a non-technical background, and the accumulated indoctrination of years of reading magazine reviews and psuedo-science advertising material. Having to un-learn all that takes time, and of course, some discussion with more experienced DIY-ers and Engineers etc... which is precisely where this forum comes in, and probably a major reason we keep seeing posts about snake-oil here. I think it's healthy.
Just my
Being only 17 I'm happy I haven't had time to learn all the magazine and industry stuff. I also have never made enough money to buy equipment that I want either.
Those two things are partly what led me to prove that I could "do it myself" for cheaper and make it better and how I want.
I produce my own power amplifiers and build accessories and speakers for myself. Like many DIY'ers, I have been able to build equipment that easily overcomes many consumer devices for far higher prices. Most of the judgement being what the ears tell me, and not the numbers. I trust my ears.
The main point I think that's helped me along the way, is that I am member of a ham radio club and I go around collecting old junk all the time. Some of the things I have collected out of garage sales and throw outs have been very nice. I often look for military and industrial surplus and stuff that's obsolete.
After years of collecting, one can also find better parts than money could afford in the right circumstances.
Anyway, not to deviate from the original meaning of this thread. I want to state that diy and true audio mean subjectivity, not manufacturer ratings and prices. I don't believe many magazines or ads, and in fact, I never have.
I'll certainly advocate the removal of snake-oil from the real world.
Those two things are partly what led me to prove that I could "do it myself" for cheaper and make it better and how I want.
I produce my own power amplifiers and build accessories and speakers for myself. Like many DIY'ers, I have been able to build equipment that easily overcomes many consumer devices for far higher prices. Most of the judgement being what the ears tell me, and not the numbers. I trust my ears.
The main point I think that's helped me along the way, is that I am member of a ham radio club and I go around collecting old junk all the time. Some of the things I have collected out of garage sales and throw outs have been very nice. I often look for military and industrial surplus and stuff that's obsolete.
After years of collecting, one can also find better parts than money could afford in the right circumstances.
Anyway, not to deviate from the original meaning of this thread. I want to state that diy and true audio mean subjectivity, not manufacturer ratings and prices. I don't believe many magazines or ads, and in fact, I never have.
I'll certainly advocate the removal of snake-oil from the real world.
Its just hard when people like the danish "master of BS" Duelund seems to have quite a following.
The reason I actually got the idea to start this post is somebody from this forum whom I offered to help out with some copper rails for his power supply in an aleph (I have all kinds of copper at hand so it seemed natural to give the guy the offer), the reply was "yikes...its got plastic insulation" with a reference to Duelund.
I tried in vain to explain that Duelund is a buisnessman, and have to make you believe in his snake oil to get food on the table.
It is very interesting to see that the less hungry an audio manufacturer is, the less snake oil. I would like to point Nelson Pass out as an example. I have never heard him talk about snake oil in any way, rather the opposite as he frequently takes the steam out of a snake oil belief....but he obviously have earned the money he needed to earn allready
Magura
The reason I actually got the idea to start this post is somebody from this forum whom I offered to help out with some copper rails for his power supply in an aleph (I have all kinds of copper at hand so it seemed natural to give the guy the offer), the reply was "yikes...its got plastic insulation" with a reference to Duelund.
I tried in vain to explain that Duelund is a buisnessman, and have to make you believe in his snake oil to get food on the table.
It is very interesting to see that the less hungry an audio manufacturer is, the less snake oil. I would like to point Nelson Pass out as an example. I have never heard him talk about snake oil in any way, rather the opposite as he frequently takes the steam out of a snake oil belief....but he obviously have earned the money he needed to earn allready
Magura
WHat people don't know they seek from others
I've been around long enough to skate around the edges of the industry for almost twenty years. I've consulted and almost went into production of a couple of designs. I have always found that people are gullable or given to believe something based on the way that they perceive it. "It must be true because I know nothing about it and it sounds so right" type of mentality. they don't know any better. Take the great green marker that makes CD's sound better story, or the magic disc that you place on top of your CD's in the player to stop the laser from shooting through the bottom CD. ( Not made up actually had people telling me this stuff ) It ain't necessarily so says I. I started out in this voyage like most of the members of the forum. Not enough money and an idea of what things should sound like. Heck I played french horn for six years, almost going pro with it. I know what instruments sound like and I wasn't hearing it from my stereo.
People listen to other people because they find it convenient. It can remove the need to do the leg work themselves. When I first started out in trying to build a good loudspeaker a man named Bill Wong helped me out a great deal. He answered my questions thoughtfully and thoroughly. That is up to a point where he found that there was a sufficient thirst for knowledge. He then told me good here is where you go to find the answers. "Here" in Ottawa, was the National Research Council Library. Spent many happy days there. Moral of the story?
Help people up the point that they may go out on their own. Hold their hand so to speak and when there is a good grounding in the fundamentals of what they are interested in push them off and see them ride on their own. No training wheels!
Mark
I've been around long enough to skate around the edges of the industry for almost twenty years. I've consulted and almost went into production of a couple of designs. I have always found that people are gullable or given to believe something based on the way that they perceive it. "It must be true because I know nothing about it and it sounds so right" type of mentality. they don't know any better. Take the great green marker that makes CD's sound better story, or the magic disc that you place on top of your CD's in the player to stop the laser from shooting through the bottom CD. ( Not made up actually had people telling me this stuff ) It ain't necessarily so says I. I started out in this voyage like most of the members of the forum. Not enough money and an idea of what things should sound like. Heck I played french horn for six years, almost going pro with it. I know what instruments sound like and I wasn't hearing it from my stereo.
People listen to other people because they find it convenient. It can remove the need to do the leg work themselves. When I first started out in trying to build a good loudspeaker a man named Bill Wong helped me out a great deal. He answered my questions thoughtfully and thoroughly. That is up to a point where he found that there was a sufficient thirst for knowledge. He then told me good here is where you go to find the answers. "Here" in Ottawa, was the National Research Council Library. Spent many happy days there. Moral of the story?
Help people up the point that they may go out on their own. Hold their hand so to speak and when there is a good grounding in the fundamentals of what they are interested in push them off and see them ride on their own. No training wheels!
Mark
Hi,
Yes....
Mind you, I'm sure in the eyes of some people we must be just as bad for listening to caps, resistors, wire and, god forbid, even skinning a cap or two...
I.O.W. what's snake oil to you and me may just as well be entirely different from what others have in mind.
O.K., Magura, you can scrap me off that list now.
BTW, plastic can be removed from the copper rods, so what's that guys' problem?
Did he expect it to come wrapped in unbleached Egyptian cotton or something?
Cheers,
Yes....
Mind you, I'm sure in the eyes of some people we must be just as bad for listening to caps, resistors, wire and, god forbid, even skinning a cap or two...
I.O.W. what's snake oil to you and me may just as well be entirely different from what others have in mind.
O.K., Magura, you can scrap me off that list now.
BTW, plastic can be removed from the copper rods, so what's that guys' problem?
Did he expect it to come wrapped in unbleached Egyptian cotton or something?
Cheers,
fdegrove said:
BTW, plastic can be removed for the copper rods, so what's that guys' problem?
Did he expect it to come wrapped in unbleached Egyptian cotton or something?
Cheers,
Naah, if Im not mistaken he also dont like cotton, the Duelund snake oil theory prescribes unbleached silk, since you can get off the shelf cables that are wrapped in cotton
Well it saved me the trouble to be nice
Magura
Re: Re: Why do people listen to people from the industry??
I have been playing around with very many setups of speakers, amps and lately ive spent a great deal of time on testing caps, FET's and cables as well.
The result of the wast majority of the tests have been no or little difference between utterly overpriced products and average reasonable quality products.
I havnt made any experiments with rectifiers yet, so i dont know if its snake oil, but I could hardly imagine it being, since the average client of passlabs have no idea about it anyway, so there is little reason besides better sound for NP to do so.
Magura
Peter Daniel said:
I have been playing around with very many setups of speakers, amps and lately ive spent a great deal of time on testing caps, FET's and cables as well.
The result of the wast majority of the tests have been no or little difference between utterly overpriced products and average reasonable quality products.
I havnt made any experiments with rectifiers yet, so i dont know if its snake oil, but I could hardly imagine it being, since the average client of passlabs have no idea about it anyway, so there is little reason besides better sound for NP to do so.
Magura
Magura said:
As much as you generalize about Pass customers (I know at least few forum members, who have original Pass equipment), you probably share similar approach to other issues in audio (snake oil stories, parts differences, pure listening satisfaction and so on). Nothing is black and white and there's lot to be learned. That's why it pays to listen to people from the industry
Whatever I was reading in all the magazines through the years, I came to experience in real life as well, when i became more serious about audio.
Actually the generalisation about Pass custumers could as well have been made about most people. I would expect it to be less than 1 out of 1000 who have any interest in why an amp sounds like it does. They buy a product and are happy with it.
I havnt got any reason to generalise about any branch of audio, so ill leave that as your assumption. One thing I though have learned about any industry is that if you want to know anything about whats facts and whats snake oil, dont ask the ones that makes money on it....according to them its all real and no snake oil involved.
To take this to another industry. I have been racing model cars for 15 years, for 10 of those years Ive made parts myself. Its a lot easier to bust the snake oil claims in that business, since you can if adequately experienced (wich most people are not) simply make stop watch tests and by the use of data loggers. If you guys only knew how much of it is snake oil....youd be shocked.
The manyfacturers have to make a new model at least every second year, and they have to come up with a reason why. Trust me, the snake oil stories are entertaining, for somebody who knows whats what and dont go waste a load of money on it. For the rest.....its a way to squeeze money out of them.
The claims are anything from newly invented super construction aluminium, to power enhancing battery cells (here I guess most people know that the only two factors that counts for a cell is the internal resistance and the voltage).
To end the model car story. The two fastest drivers in my area are myself and a good friend of mine. We are sporting the 2 cheapest cars on the track!!!
I would like to quote an old friend of mine: When people are stating the obvious, its most likely not true. He gave the soviet newspaper Pravda as example. Pravda means "the truth", wich is pretty much the only thing it wasnt.
MAgura
I havnt got any reason to generalise about any branch of audio, so ill leave that as your assumption. One thing I though have learned about any industry is that if you want to know anything about whats facts and whats snake oil, dont ask the ones that makes money on it....according to them its all real and no snake oil involved.
To take this to another industry. I have been racing model cars for 15 years, for 10 of those years Ive made parts myself. Its a lot easier to bust the snake oil claims in that business, since you can if adequately experienced (wich most people are not) simply make stop watch tests and by the use of data loggers. If you guys only knew how much of it is snake oil....youd be shocked.
The manyfacturers have to make a new model at least every second year, and they have to come up with a reason why. Trust me, the snake oil stories are entertaining, for somebody who knows whats what and dont go waste a load of money on it. For the rest.....its a way to squeeze money out of them.
The claims are anything from newly invented super construction aluminium, to power enhancing battery cells (here I guess most people know that the only two factors that counts for a cell is the internal resistance and the voltage).
To end the model car story. The two fastest drivers in my area are myself and a good friend of mine. We are sporting the 2 cheapest cars on the track!!!
I would like to quote an old friend of mine: When people are stating the obvious, its most likely not true. He gave the soviet newspaper Pravda as example. Pravda means "the truth", wich is pretty much the only thing it wasnt.
MAgura
Plastic becomming magnetic.
Loads of the speaker cable and interconnect claims. Take the interconnects from noordost. They are an exact match of a twisted pair of multistranded copper, just priced somewhat higher.
Those would be the two top snake oil picks....but there sure are more. Look at a site like audio note. They have been so far out that they have been posted as jokes here on the forum.
Magura
Loads of the speaker cable and interconnect claims. Take the interconnects from noordost. They are an exact match of a twisted pair of multistranded copper, just priced somewhat higher.
Those would be the two top snake oil picks....but there sure are more. Look at a site like audio note. They have been so far out that they have been posted as jokes here on the forum.
Magura
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