Everyone knows about the high priced audio wires out there catering to the folks who claim to be able to hear the difference.
I'm trying to research some factual data that might explain the physics of why one wire might sound different than another.
Like, what is 99% Oxygen-free Copper? And why would that, or Silver, sound any different than "regular" Copper?
Trying to keep an open mind...
I'm trying to research some factual data that might explain the physics of why one wire might sound different than another.
Like, what is 99% Oxygen-free Copper? And why would that, or Silver, sound any different than "regular" Copper?
Trying to keep an open mind...
Re: Re: Copper, silver, wire myths?
The reason for oxygen free copper is to prevent it from embrittlement when heated in a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen.
Oxygenated copper such as your basic ETP copper is intentionally oxygenated under precisly controlled conditions. What the oxygen does is scavenge inpurities in the wire, removing them from solution. This actually results in higher conductivity.
In order for oxygen free copper to have the same conductivity as oxygenated copper, it needs to have a higher purity.
se
markp said:
The reason for oxygen free copper is to prevent it from embrittlement when heated in a reducing atmosphere such as hydrogen.
Oxygenated copper such as your basic ETP copper is intentionally oxygenated under precisly controlled conditions. What the oxygen does is scavenge inpurities in the wire, removing them from solution. This actually results in higher conductivity.
In order for oxygen free copper to have the same conductivity as oxygenated copper, it needs to have a higher purity.
se
GRollins said:
Bummer.
I'm an Engineer by trade and an objectivist by nature. I believe that (with electronics) if it can't be measured, it doesn't exist.
With complex signal processors like amplifiers, I'm willing to accept, "It sounds different and I don't know why". Eventually maybe some scientist will explain some as yet unknown "distortion" mechanism that will explain why.
But for something as (seemingly) simple as wire... I'd have thought that someone would have already put an objective reason behind the subjective evidence that there's a difference between them.
In 99.999% of the cases, marketing and sociology. Before the strawman zombies come marching out of their graves screaming for my brains, that is a VERY different thing than saying, "substituting wires in a system never changes the sound." That's just as wrong. But sonic changes verified by controlled listening tests are always due to very well known factors, like R, L, and C affecting frequency response and/or amplifier stability.
Ayn Rand was a blowhard. And a really sludgy writer.
Re: Re: Re: Copper, silver, wire myths?
One step further, the oxygen is then driven from the metal to take the impurities with it resulting in O2 free wire. The oxygen does not stay in the wire or the impurities would be trapped with it in the wire making it worse off than without.Steve Eddy said:
Silver has the highest conductivity of any metal but is prone to oxidization. Gold is like 66% as conductive as silver but does not oxidize so it is used on 'high end' connectors to insure at least 66% conductivity. Silver starts at nearly 99% but gets worse as it tarnishes to the point of much less than 66% conductivity. Copper is very close to silver but it too oxidizes. A rhodium plating on silver prevents the silver from oxidization yet it maintains its high conductivity.maylar said:
Don't forget about copper-oxides making "micro-diodes...."
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=254957#post254957
:roll:
(was that debacle ever settled in one of the many subsequent threads? Has anyone attempted to contact Eric via phone - his disappearance was abrupt to say the least.)
I completely agree with SY: The cables have far more affect on the active components they connect than of the signal going through the cable.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=254957#post254957
:roll:
(was that debacle ever settled in one of the many subsequent threads? Has anyone attempted to contact Eric via phone - his disappearance was abrupt to say the least.)
I completely agree with SY: The cables have far more affect on the active components they connect than of the signal going through the cable.
I've got something *you* haven't. Nyah! Nyah!
I think it comes down to some people feeling "superior" if they have something someone else hasn't got.
As soon as all and sundry started using CD's these people then switched back to vinyl and procaimed it's virtues. As soon as the hard disk is replaced by some solid-state thing, you can guess who will sing the praises of HDD's. If everyone started using inch-thick teflon coated silver speaker cables, you can bet your boots this crowd will "discover" 1940's vintage rubber covered wire ripped out of old houses. Of course, wires from some houses will be better than others because of having been conditioned by decades of AC with lower harmonic distortion than other areas. 
I think it comes down to some people feeling "superior" if they have something someone else hasn't got.
As soon as all and sundry started using CD's these people then switched back to vinyl and procaimed it's virtues. As soon as the hard disk is replaced by some solid-state thing, you can guess who will sing the praises of HDD's. If everyone started using inch-thick teflon coated silver speaker cables, you can bet your boots this crowd will "discover" 1940's vintage rubber covered wire ripped out of old houses. Of course, wires from some houses will be better than others because of having been conditioned by decades of AC with lower harmonic distortion than other areas. maylar said:
since you asked for "open mind", my understanding is that those oxygen atoms do nothing but gross atrocity to those electrons (only left spin ones not the right spin ones, mind you) rushing down the wire. As such, you will end up with a lot more right spin electrons on the other end of the wire.
rumors have it that certain elite members with golden ears can hear the imbalance between left spin and right spin electrons (like odd vs. even harmonics). As such, having oxygen in your copper wires is a bad bad bad thing.
Of course, those same members claimed to hear cable directionality but when put to a test, we haven't been able to hear from them ever since.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, silver, wire myths?
No, it's not. What's called oxygen free in most books (the primary book being the Copper Development Association's book of specifications) has about two orders of magnitude less oxygen (less than 0.0005%) than oxygenated ETP copper.
The 0.04% oxygen in ETP copper is intentionally added (and not subsequently removed). Can't exactly call it oxygen free if you're intentionally adding oxygen. Sure, 0.04% oxygen isn't a whole lot, and for practical purposes with regard to audio it might as well be oxygen free, but what the metals industry calls oxygen free is something quite different.
se
markp said:
No, it's not. What's called oxygen free in most books (the primary book being the Copper Development Association's book of specifications) has about two orders of magnitude less oxygen (less than 0.0005%) than oxygenated ETP copper.
The 0.04% oxygen in ETP copper is intentionally added (and not subsequently removed). Can't exactly call it oxygen free if you're intentionally adding oxygen. Sure, 0.04% oxygen isn't a whole lot, and for practical purposes with regard to audio it might as well be oxygen free, but what the metals industry calls oxygen free is something quite different.
se
There are big differences.
Price: material, Cu or Ag not so much, but for myth you have to pay serios hundreds of $$ each meter.
Ag is very good to work with, it solders easy. But silver plated Cu also, a little less expensive. Cu needs a clean surface to solder, it has oxides on surface after short time and does not take the solder anymore.
Of corse there is a BIG difference in what direction you connect it, because of this in one direction the negative halfwave is supressed, the other direction only has influence on the positive. If you only listen to positve music, such as Vivaldi or Mozart, you should always wire in the direction that only affects negative halfwaves, In case you like more negative Music like industrial or rap, otherway round. Cave: this scheme needs to be inverted in case you have a source with phase inverting output! The easyest way to test is to plug in the mains plug reverse into the wall outlet!
btw: does quicksilver cable sound more liquid?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copper, silver, wire myths?
After checking about half a dozen manufacturers websites, the average was 99.95% being called oxygen free copper. Also .01 or .02% was the average for added O2. This might not be the book spec but it is what the industry is using and as such what we get from them.
Steve Eddy said:
After checking about half a dozen manufacturers websites, the average was 99.95% being called oxygen free copper. Also .01 or .02% was the average for added O2. This might not be the book spec but it is what the industry is using and as such what we get from them.
Considering the audio obsession with gold plate, I remain amazed that no one in the non-automotive audio field is selling gold plated fuses and fuse holders. Think about the abominable abuses being inflicted on your mains power by those cheap, low-down, tin-plated fuses between the medical grade power entry socket and the transformer primaries. OH, the shame of it!
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