Yes but think of all the laughs you'd miss out on.
We all know the laws of science and physics are made to be ignored and broken just because they don't suit.
> one cell coiled around the other
> NOT stacking multiple button cells end to end
For a given external size, you can stack or wrap multiple cells to get a higher voltage.
This is not new. Grey-beards will remember 45V and 90V batteries for portable tube radios. They were large, but a compact 45V was not as large as a D-cell. And only carried B current for a few hours.
While the voltage goes up, the mAH (current*time) goes down, due to less active area in each multiple cell to fit within the specified size.
If you are restricted to a 5-gallon bucket, you can only jam up-to 5 gallons into it, no matter how you stack or roll.
> 9v's it would be enormously more efficient because less space would be wasted!
I know two ways to make disposable 9V packs. Older ones used six flat-pack 1.54V cells. One I autopsied a decade ago had six cylindrical cells (like an AAA cell but much smaller). The cylindrical fill did leave some dead space between cylinders. I have the impression that they can give the conventional power density with less material than older products.
Also it is more about the marketing (brand, advertising, coupons, price) than actual performance.
As said: a 9V or 12V in a "AA" cell size is dangerous. There are some different-volt similar-package batteries but they usually have very different terminals so they won't work in the wrong compartment.
There are already too many! battery sizes. A new improvement will have a hard time getting a toe in the market. Appliances/toys to use the new size won't appear until the battery is widely available; it won't be widely available until appliances/toys to use it become common.
Decades ago, Polaroid needed a massive battery in their film-pack, to work the motors for large-size instant sheet-film. They devised their own flat sack-pack and did sell millions inside their film-packs. They promoted it widely for other products, but I do not know of any that used the Polaroid "PolaPulse" flat battery. Small use by experimenters who pulled part-dead batts out of used-up film packs and powered small radios and such.
Ah-- the battery in my Palm Pilot was a very similar flat sack-pack. I suspect that Polaroid's patent had already expired.
> Is there something wrong chemically or internally
No. Just do it.
> NOT stacking multiple button cells end to end
For a given external size, you can stack or wrap multiple cells to get a higher voltage.
This is not new. Grey-beards will remember 45V and 90V batteries for portable tube radios. They were large, but a compact 45V was not as large as a D-cell. And only carried B current for a few hours.
While the voltage goes up, the mAH (current*time) goes down, due to less active area in each multiple cell to fit within the specified size.
If you are restricted to a 5-gallon bucket, you can only jam up-to 5 gallons into it, no matter how you stack or roll.
> 9v's it would be enormously more efficient because less space would be wasted!
I know two ways to make disposable 9V packs. Older ones used six flat-pack 1.54V cells. One I autopsied a decade ago had six cylindrical cells (like an AAA cell but much smaller). The cylindrical fill did leave some dead space between cylinders. I have the impression that they can give the conventional power density with less material than older products.
Also it is more about the marketing (brand, advertising, coupons, price) than actual performance.
As said: a 9V or 12V in a "AA" cell size is dangerous. There are some different-volt similar-package batteries but they usually have very different terminals so they won't work in the wrong compartment.
There are already too many! battery sizes. A new improvement will have a hard time getting a toe in the market. Appliances/toys to use the new size won't appear until the battery is widely available; it won't be widely available until appliances/toys to use it become common.
Decades ago, Polaroid needed a massive battery in their film-pack, to work the motors for large-size instant sheet-film. They devised their own flat sack-pack and did sell millions inside their film-packs. They promoted it widely for other products, but I do not know of any that used the Polaroid "PolaPulse" flat battery. Small use by experimenters who pulled part-dead batts out of used-up film packs and powered small radios and such.
Ah-- the battery in my Palm Pilot was a very similar flat sack-pack. I suspect that Polaroid's patent had already expired.
> Is there something wrong chemically or internally
No. Just do it.
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I was thinking of rechargeable 9v's not disposable alkalines!
if I had the resources and support I would absolutely make my own NIMH rechargeable 9v with all the cells within coiled/wrapped together instead of individual button-size/shaped cells connected end to end.
It would fill as much space in the 9v case as possible. and of course have lots of tweaking and refinements. I'd make it as LSD as possible so it would be great for radio control remote control and for multimeters and such it would be very long lasting and not a knockoff or ripoff.
and I'd give it a new name and stuff like "Ultra dense rolled up cells design"
to keep the cells from connecting i'd just use a simple separator between the cells. there would be much less dead space in the pack. it would be as dense as possible right up to the edge of the metal housing. (and wouldn't be possible to take it apart. with its own venting.)
but nobody wants to do this because they don't feel it would give much benefit and for other similar reasons. or they just dont want to.
I'm not talking of disposables (although they potentially might work as well but there wouldn't be much point. as some disposable 9v types already have a similar type of structure inside)
The higher voltage would likely have MORE capacity versus standard individual cells connected end to end. for example a rechargeable 9v because there would be less dead space inside and it would be filled to the brim with active electrode material and the only dead space would be a very thin non permeable separator to separate the cells within to keep them from shorting to each other. which would be negligible amount and still benefit a big increase in capacity.
if I had the resources and support I would absolutely make my own NIMH rechargeable 9v with all the cells within coiled/wrapped together instead of individual button-size/shaped cells connected end to end.
It would fill as much space in the 9v case as possible. and of course have lots of tweaking and refinements. I'd make it as LSD as possible so it would be great for radio control remote control and for multimeters and such it would be very long lasting and not a knockoff or ripoff.
and I'd give it a new name and stuff like "Ultra dense rolled up cells design"
to keep the cells from connecting i'd just use a simple separator between the cells. there would be much less dead space in the pack. it would be as dense as possible right up to the edge of the metal housing. (and wouldn't be possible to take it apart. with its own venting.)
but nobody wants to do this because they don't feel it would give much benefit and for other similar reasons. or they just dont want to.
I'm not talking of disposables (although they potentially might work as well but there wouldn't be much point. as some disposable 9v types already have a similar type of structure inside)
The higher voltage would likely have MORE capacity versus standard individual cells connected end to end. for example a rechargeable 9v because there would be less dead space inside and it would be filled to the brim with active electrode material and the only dead space would be a very thin non permeable separator to separate the cells within to keep them from shorting to each other. which would be negligible amount and still benefit a big increase in capacity.
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One of the strangest threads in a while, batteries are classified by joules/kg stuffing them into a slightly smaller space does not gain you anything in terms of cost, etc. The extra space is just space, the electrolyte is what costs and that goes by weight not volume.
Well I dont mean just compacting the existing amount of electrode material into a smaller space.
I mean compacting it and adding more since theres more room once they are compacted by rolling the cells up together (rather than just having them just connected as individual cells end to end and not rolled up together.)
The space savings and potential for more capacity are pretty reasonable. but nobody's ever got around to making a multi-cell NIMH this way.
Always done with separate individual cells.
Square cells would be a step closer. but still not quite there.
They would be able to add a lot more electrode material when rolling the cells up this way. since there would be so much space savings already.
I mean compacting it and adding more since theres more room once they are compacted by rolling the cells up together (rather than just having them just connected as individual cells end to end and not rolled up together.)
The space savings and potential for more capacity are pretty reasonable. but nobody's ever got around to making a multi-cell NIMH this way.
Always done with separate individual cells.
Square cells would be a step closer. but still not quite there.
They would be able to add a lot more electrode material when rolling the cells up this way. since there would be so much space savings already.
yes it is a conductor but there's plenty of room for optimization and preventing that from being an issue (Aren't they normally touching single cells because the electrolyte is just free to go as it pleases. even inside a single cell. The electrolyte simply acts as a medium for the electrodes to activate through to pass to the other electrode.. so the energy doesn't particularly go through the electrolyte that's freely floating on the edges of the roll.
the insulator/separator would be enough to separate them internally... They wouldn't be touching.. and I don't believe the bit of extra electrolyte touching around the edges would be enough to short them. It would just be a slow discharge. Sort of like. higher voltage potential from it. but non-LSD type.
if it was tweaked and tweaked so they were separated as best as possible while still being in roll/coil form it would be almost as good as LSD NIMH's
the extra capacity would be great.
It'd sorta be great for specific voltage things.
Its possible you could have 3 NIMH's rolled together together in the shape of a 18650 cell shape and pop it in place of a LI ION and nobody would be the wiser. Not even the electronics would be able to tell the difference. as long as they're well matched and not discharged or charged at too high of a rate. (and they should be because they are rolled together and thermally locked together as well for being so close together)
you could in theory have one the shape of a brick. about same size as a 5AH 12v lead acid. with 10 NIMH cells inside rolled up together in a square/rectangle shape of a brick.
and it'd have similar or perhaps even more capacity than a similar size lead acid since all the cells are rolled up tightly together and taking up all the space possible with minimal wasted space (theres quite a bit of empty space in most lead acid batteries for reserve. even AGM and gel type have a noticeable amount of empty space inside)
with NIMH there would be no reason for empty space.
the insulator/separator would be enough to separate them internally... They wouldn't be touching.. and I don't believe the bit of extra electrolyte touching around the edges would be enough to short them. It would just be a slow discharge. Sort of like. higher voltage potential from it. but non-LSD type.
if it was tweaked and tweaked so they were separated as best as possible while still being in roll/coil form it would be almost as good as LSD NIMH's
the extra capacity would be great.
It'd sorta be great for specific voltage things.
Its possible you could have 3 NIMH's rolled together together in the shape of a 18650 cell shape and pop it in place of a LI ION and nobody would be the wiser. Not even the electronics would be able to tell the difference. as long as they're well matched and not discharged or charged at too high of a rate. (and they should be because they are rolled together and thermally locked together as well for being so close together)
you could in theory have one the shape of a brick. about same size as a 5AH 12v lead acid. with 10 NIMH cells inside rolled up together in a square/rectangle shape of a brick.
and it'd have similar or perhaps even more capacity than a similar size lead acid since all the cells are rolled up tightly together and taking up all the space possible with minimal wasted space (theres quite a bit of empty space in most lead acid batteries for reserve. even AGM and gel type have a noticeable amount of empty space inside)
with NIMH there would be no reason for empty space.
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It is quite normal for people on audio websites to redesign battery technology, with ideas which the battery manufacturers have missed or suppressed for commercial reasons, just like others correct the multitude of errors in modern physics which physicists have missed or suppressed for somewhat vague reasons. After all, it is only a small step from understanding why speaker cables must be directional to rewriting the Standard Model so that it can be fully understood by any car mechanic.
> there would be less dead space inside
I'd like to see this dead space. But I don't want to blow-up a battery and poison my dog. Can you find internal pictures showing waste space?
BTW: one reason suggested for Samsung's burning-battery problems is not *enough* space inside. Minor alignment errors lead to pinch-spots.
I'd like to see this dead space. But I don't want to blow-up a battery and poison my dog. Can you find internal pictures showing waste space?
BTW: one reason suggested for Samsung's burning-battery problems is not *enough* space inside. Minor alignment errors lead to pinch-spots.
https://www.batterystation.co.uk/li...ry-pack-of-1?gclid=CMK_rqOfi9MCFXcW0wodxLkCvA
Its being done to an extent for some industrial stuff, the equipment tends to have a SM PSU inside to cater for the different battery voltages, allowing for the use of std. AA batteries in the field if the higher power ones run out...
Its being done to an extent for some industrial stuff, the equipment tends to have a SM PSU inside to cater for the different battery voltages, allowing for the use of std. AA batteries in the field if the higher power ones run out...
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you have a couple of engineering problems. 1) how do you select the voltage externally
and what switch mechanism do you use to manage this, 2) how do you prevent over-
voltage in the event the selected voltage is incorrect, 3) wouldn't #1 and #2 add complexity to the usage-side and eliminate the internal space savings?
then there's the question of how do you charge this thing. for example, you have
10 cells offering 1.2v each. your "switch" provides 6v by series connection of 5 cells.
after 10 hours of usage, 5 cells are depleted, 5 are OK. how do you charge only the
5 cells that need it?
since you are passionate about this I suggest you work out the details and either
build a prototype or file a patent or both.
and what switch mechanism do you use to manage this, 2) how do you prevent over-
voltage in the event the selected voltage is incorrect, 3) wouldn't #1 and #2 add complexity to the usage-side and eliminate the internal space savings?
then there's the question of how do you charge this thing. for example, you have
10 cells offering 1.2v each. your "switch" provides 6v by series connection of 5 cells.
after 10 hours of usage, 5 cells are depleted, 5 are OK. how do you charge only the
5 cells that need it?
since you are passionate about this I suggest you work out the details and either
build a prototype or file a patent or both.
same way you charge lead acid batteries in series. just cycle them a few times to get them ever closer to the same charge state. at a low rate. (or a continuous soft overcharge where its not high enough to cause any overheating) and you dont select the voltage. its just a fixed battery already.
my uses for this would be lighter with more capacity batteries for small rechargeable RC cars or other devices. like a 9v battery. could be made lighter with more capacity anything RC related would be a great place to use these specifically sized and voltage NIMH's
there would be less space used up compared to using a battery pack and it would be lighter with more capacity in a smaller space and take up less room.
There could be individual wire taps coming out of the cell for balance charging if needed (for RC use or something) but something small like a 9v battery would charge at a slow rate enough that balancing wouldn't be a problem because it would be at a low rate and they wouldnt overheat.
my uses for this would be lighter with more capacity batteries for small rechargeable RC cars or other devices. like a 9v battery. could be made lighter with more capacity anything RC related would be a great place to use these specifically sized and voltage NIMH's
there would be less space used up compared to using a battery pack and it would be lighter with more capacity in a smaller space and take up less room.
There could be individual wire taps coming out of the cell for balance charging if needed (for RC use or something) but something small like a 9v battery would charge at a slow rate enough that balancing wouldn't be a problem because it would be at a low rate and they wouldnt overheat.
Provided you ignore all the physical issues that exist with this concept, it is a great idea. So keep ignoring:
- the need to physically isolate the electrolyte between cells
- how you maintain balance on charge between the cells and
- how much volume you will need to address the above
It sounds like a cracker of an idea.
- the need to physically isolate the electrolyte between cells
- how you maintain balance on charge between the cells and
- how much volume you will need to address the above
It sounds like a cracker of an idea.
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