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Old 3rd February 2004, 01:54 AM   #1
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Default PC game RNG

This is way off audio. I have this PC game in my old computer (286, with 100Mhz speed). The game is simple. There is 4 blocks that have to be "guessed" to win. The choice is only A or B. We have to guess it step by step, from block no.1 to the last block.
For example the right answer is A-A-B-A. First we guess the first block. If we guess it right (A), then the game gives green light, we get 25% point, and we can make the guess for the second block. If again we guess right for the second block (A), it makes our score 50% point. But if we guess wrong for the third block, the game gives red light, and we have this game and continue with other game. (the game that is wrongly guessed cannot be played anymore). The same case if we already guess wrongly for the first block, then the red light is on and the game is over.

I'm very curious about this game. It is only on the 100Mhz computer. But I think solving this may benefit in many other field. I read in the net that this kind of game is incorporating a RNG (Random Number Generator) for the computer to make the answers.

Is there any possiblity that we can always knows the answer on such a game? I think about 2 possibilities, but cannot figure out how to do both of it.

1. Nowdays, the computer is 1.5Ghz in speed. How if we make the current PC played this game (on the 100Mhz old PC) so it can collect statistic, so the RNG can be estimated? Is it possible to predict what an RNG will produce with statistic? Will the faster PC can determine the pattern of RNG produced by slower PC?

2. Is it possible to make such a "Scanner" to determine what will be the next answer? The electronics inside the PC must be making some electromagnetic noise radiance. Is it possible that we can make such a pocket size scanner, that can determine wheter the next answer will be A or B?

There are many clever guy involved in this website. Maybe some are very familiar with both electronic and computers (and maybe electromagnetic scanners)?
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Old 3rd February 2004, 02:27 AM   #2
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If it's a 286, it's probably 4.17/8/10/12Mhz. For 100Mhz that'd be the 486/Pentium range.

As for the randon number generation, I'll quote fourmilab.ch

"Computer-generated "random" numbers are more properly referred to as pseudorandom numbers, and pseudorandom sequences of such numbers. A variety of clever algorithms have been developed which generate sequences of numbers which pass every statistical test used to distinguish random sequences from those containing some pattern or internal order. A test program is available at this site which applies such tests to sequences of bytes and reports how random they appear to be, and if you run this program on data generated by a high-quality pseudorandom sequence generator, you'll find it generates data that are indistinguishable from a sequence of bytes chosen at random. Indistinguishable, but not genuinely random."

Likewise, that'd answer your first theory. It'd have to be random(or indistinguishable, I suppose) for many encryption methods today to work as they do. I know that some CPUs/cryptography DSP can generate random numbers by a different "more random" method although I can't seem to think of the name.
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Old 3rd February 2004, 03:04 AM   #3
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Ok, sorry, so it must be less than 100Mhz.
If it is kind of "OLD" RNG, run by "OLD" computer, would it possible that if we use a current PC (much-much faster), the pattern of the RNG could be opened?

What about the possibility of making such a "electomagnetic scanner" to know what will be the next output?
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Old 3rd February 2004, 06:07 PM   #4
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computers operate a bit differently from say an amplifier, all the computer is operating in is zeros and ones, it would be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a true boolean and a false boolean value going through the processor. Its all the same frequency etc, its just either on or not. You would be much better off writting a program that 'hacked' the game and told you what the values are in the memory of the computer. But what was said earlier is true, there are no true random numbers being used on that computer, all a computer can do is add ones and zeros......really well. What the computer is doing to create a random number is, the program tells it to put a number into an equation, and out pops the random number, then the next time you put the previous answer into the equation, and out pops a new "random" number. This is repeated for as many random numbers as the program wants. There are various methods of doing the same thing, so thats not the only way the equations work. So yeah, it is possible to have a program running that analyzes the random number outputs and comes up with an equation to follow.
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Old 4th February 2004, 12:09 AM   #5
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All computers can only generate pseudo random numbers simply because of the generation procedures they use, and in fact, this is the way that GCHQ and the NSA can eventually crack most computer encryption. Modern cryptography uses so-called one time pads, consisting of lists of truly random numbers created by recording atmospheric radio noise or atomic decay particles.
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Old 4th February 2004, 01:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinkmouse
All computers can only generate pseudo random numbers simply because of the generation procedures they use, and in fact, this is the way that GCHQ and the NSA can eventually crack most computer encryption. Modern cryptography uses so-called one time pads, consisting of lists of truly random numbers created by recording atmospheric radio noise or atomic decay particles.
IIRC, some of todays more modern computers available to the public have CPU's and or chipsets that are capable of generating random numbers by measuring thermal noise at a given instant.
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Old 4th February 2004, 02:17 AM   #7
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I think the pentium 3 had something similar in it. It sent a electrical pulse through (something, im not sure what), then depending on how far the electrical pulse went before it dissipated out, that was the ramdom number (or at least that was used in the random number generator)
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Old 4th February 2004, 02:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
You would be much better off writting a program that 'hacked' the game and told you what the values are in the memory of the computer
This is really the problem. The computer is already HAVE the value of the next answer (in the memory), but we still dont know it yet, until we guess it.

Is there any possible way to know what is the next answer (that is already in the memory of the computer) from outside (without making any hack program?)

It is said that it is imposible for us to make such an electomagnetic scanner, because all computer do is on and off.
But what if the data is in array of bits, ex : A=00101, B=11101, would this make a different electromagnetic radiance that can be distinguished, or is it not?

How is an electromatnetic scanner works? What is it made for?
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Old 4th February 2004, 02:37 AM   #9
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Had to look it up.
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Old 4th February 2004, 02:44 AM   #10
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Bah, hit submit by accident, I'm an idiot.

It was Via's "Nemehiah" CPU that ships with a "real" random number generator. It takes it's samples from thermal readings in the CPU. Certain Intel chipsets since the i810 are available with a thermal sampled random number generator too.
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