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Old 27th February 2002, 06:31 PM   #1
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Default Point to Point wiring

Not exactly what I had in mind........

H.H.
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Old 27th February 2002, 08:48 PM   #2
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Default Jeremy you see that !!!???

Jeremy,

look, someone took a correspondence course at Dave Slagle's

Harry should be awarded the 1st dan of the black cliplead belt! ROTLFMAO
I will never master this, mentally blocked, i bow in respect!
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Bernhard
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Old 27th February 2002, 09:19 PM   #3
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Unhappy point to point

This is not my work! I found it in a newsgroup. My one off, point to point experiments tend to be more three dimensional. I nominate the picture on page 9 of the following link for the " I was in a hurry to prototype it" award. I have done some equally frightening test circuits for telecom. I built a couple with surface mount parts with a microscope! The solder joints looked like huge rocks under the scope. I also was forced to swear in three languages during the ordeal..... (English, German, and French.)

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/a40.pdf (page 9)

H.H.

P.S. I hear that the green clip leads sound the best.
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Old 27th February 2002, 09:43 PM   #4
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Harry,

from own experience i would dare to state that p2p wiring is the ony way to go sonically.



When i was a newbie, i always was afraid of p2p wirings with unpredicable stray capacitances, layout, intra-circuit crosstalk, everything unpredictable, the guy succeding in it was either a master or very lucky or both.



Today i understand a bit more about the subject, i know that stray capacitances of a p2p wiring are much lower and i use gridstoppers anyway and no neg.feedback if possible, so why bother about HF oscillations? And crosstalk is much more probable on PCBs , in a 3D p2p wiring hardly 2 wires are parallel to induce crosstalk. With p2p, you can keep short those wires you want to be short.

I am quite convinced that 1st try'n'success probability for any of us is much higher with a p2p wiring than with a PCB layout.



Oops, forgot, p2p sounds better. Much better.
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Old 27th February 2002, 09:45 PM   #5
subwo1 is offline subwo1  United States
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Harry, I can relate to 3-dimensional point-to-point wiring. I like to build small modules and hook them together. Projects are more compact that way. I wouldn't want to make printed circuit boards for very many different circuits. I like to solder parts to IC sockets to make the modules. It doesn't produce the most aesthetic results, but it makes prototyping easier.
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Old 27th February 2002, 11:35 PM   #6
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Default Missing the point

You guys are "preaching to the choir" (the already converted for those of you in Rio Linda) I could agree more with you. Unless you start bundeling the wires together together you will get about 1/4 of the stray capacitance of a PC board on FR-4 and about half of that of even a teflon board and can use exotic conductors. I did a digital audio circuit with very short traces to an RF type opamp once and found out that it sounded much better to bend the feedback pins up and solder the resitor on top of the opamp! This was a difference of about 2pF! I ended up building several hundred boards this way. I have talked to several designers of audio equipment that complained how sensitive the sound a circuit is to the PCB layout. I love the nice looking layouts with nice even rows of resistors and a four layer board to tie them together. Looks nice, sounds bad. Grid and gate resistors are a great idea but mount them as close to the gate(fet) or grid(tube) as possible. I am getting ready to do my first p2p silver wire circuit. If you need a ground plane, you can use unetched PCB material and wire above it. I have built very fast digital circuits like this for prototype and they worked fine.

My Guru for layout considerations is at link below. I went to one of his seminars once and never looked at a circuit the same way again. Useful for analog circuits also.

http://www.sigcon.com

H.H.
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Old 28th February 2002, 02:16 AM   #7
JoeBob is offline JoeBob  Canada
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Just out of curiosity what kind of wire do you guys use? I usually use solid inductor wire (mainly because it won't move around on me and I happened to get a whole bunch for free).
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Old 28th February 2002, 03:03 AM   #8
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Default wire direction

Directional characteristic of wire needs to be taken into account - I once made non directional interconnects by by connecting wire from source active terminal to load active terminal and then back again - ditto earth connection - ditto other channel - this DRAMATICALLY improved depth imaging and overall cleanness.
Also built CDP 3 dimensional D/A convertor output stage using P-P technique.
All connections were direct component P-P except for 2 wires (10mm) connecting DA convertor L&R ouputs to first filter stage.
I tried 6 different types of wire and got 6 subtlely different sounds, and another 6 sounds when I reversed the direction of these 2 short connecting wires!
Replacing these connections with 2 wires back to back cured the directional characteristic and gave the biggest, wildest sounding CD player I have ever heard - and I have heard (and repaired - thousands) a lot of them.
Years later I met a retired nuclear physicist (worked on Marshall Islands and Maralinga Projects), and discussed these and other findings with him and got the response "Yes, expect wire to be directional - reason is copper ingot takes up local field magnetic
alignment during manufacture and subsequent wire drawing operations"
Past Hi-Fi discussions regarding wire directionality truth or myth are hereby debunked!

Maybe this helps, maybe this adds more problems, maybe this opens another discussion subject.

Now ask me about "Tone Stone".
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Old 28th February 2002, 03:07 AM   #9
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Re - photo of prototype using alligator clip leads -
Is this point to point wiring or just pointless ?

Just could'nt resist being cheeky! , , .
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Old 28th February 2002, 03:09 AM   #10
subwo1 is offline subwo1  United States
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JoeBob, I wire low current circuitry with single srand 24 guage or less hookup or magnet wire. When magnet wire is twisted together, the conductors are very close together, improving noise munity for interconnects. For most connections in the modules I simply use the part leads themselves as jumpers. For higher currents, I use standard stranded hookup wire. For mounting modules to the copper side of a circuit board to hold them in place I use solid magnet wire with a thickness of 20 guage or more.

I have done things like fastening filter caps to a chasis and then using them as a foundation for mounting modules. Any componet that is large enough, including heatsinks and transformers works this way.
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