Mundorf polyprop x Rodenstein MKT listening test preparation - Page 13 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Everything Else

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 5th February 2014, 08:59 PM   #121
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 11
Sorry, Pavel, turned out to be a 'medical' day yesterday, first chance this morning to listen, thanks for the posting!

Straightaway, speakers and DAC dead cold, in worst listening state, orig was so superior, way in front of cap2. The giveaway, the quality of the cymbals, in the 2nd half of the snippet - in orig this was the first time the tone of these actually worked as reminding me of the real thing, even though the playback was relatively poor. Going across to cap2 and wire, yes, the cymbals were there, but they were relatively anonymous, the sparkle of the real thing was severely curtailed, in comparison.
__________________
Frank the truth is, I just like a bit of ASMR ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 05:29 AM   #122
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Thank you, Frank. Your observations support the fact that even a cheap PC audio system with plastic speakers should be supplied with the best possible sound data, both to be pleased by listening and to get usable output from listening tests.
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 09:17 AM   #123
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
I get 7/7 ABX result when I compare the original sound file with D/A - wire- A/D sound file. Matched and aligned, of course. Listening in a second room through open door, sitting at my PC, the biggest difference is in the sound impact.

When doing cap1 x cap3 (Mundorf x Roederstein), I get 2/7 result, or something similarly random when repeated.

The conclusion, to me, is like this: there is a big difference after applying a commercial D/A - A/D chain to the original data. I would need something like Meitner system. Thus, even if there was a subtle audible sound difference between the caps, it would be very difficult to catch it, without having the best SOTA D/A A/D hardware available.
Attached Images
File Type: png pma_wire_orig.PNG (43.9 KB, 58 views)
File Type: png pma_cap1_cap3.PNG (44.1 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Speakers+amplifiers_home_s.JPG (97.1 KB, 48 views)
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html

Last edited by PMA; 6th February 2014 at 09:20 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 09:52 AM   #124
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
diyAudio Moderator
 
Mooly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
The conclusion, to me, is like this: there is a big difference after applying a commercial D/A - A/D chain to the original data. I would need something like Meitner system. Thus, even if there was a subtle audible sound difference between the caps, it would be very difficult to catch it, without having the best SOTA D/A A/D hardware available.
Yes... but could it be argued also that each file, the original (off CD) and the A/D-D/A file can each be viewed as unique and valid.

Are you meaning that the extreme subtleties of for example, the inclusion of a cap in the A/D D/A chain would be non-detectable because the whole chains resolution is not high enough.

Is it possible I wonder to ABX two "identical" recordings made through the same A/D D/A process where the only difference is that they are two takes of the same recording.

There must be some "baseline" at which tests like these do become detectable to the listeners. Maybe that is worth exploring because if the "baseline" becomes so huge then it means the test process isn't working as intended. The trouble is that the software and the people skilled in using such software can seemingly pick the tiniest details from files and that has to sway the result. Sit them down and say "listen" and the results are probably much more blurred.

Hmmm... interesting.
__________________
-------------------------------------------------------
Installing and using LTspice. From beginner to advanced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:10 AM   #125
miero is offline miero  Czech Republic
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Prague
Several rounds of D/A A/D re-recordings might help to reveal what is added or lost during this process.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:12 AM   #126
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
Yes... but could it be argued also that each file, the original (off CD) and the A/D-D/A file can each be viewed as unique and valid.

Are you meaning that the extreme subtleties of for example, the inclusion of a cap in the A/D D/A chain would be non-detectable because the whole chains resolution is not high enough.

Is it possible I wonder to ABX two "identical" recordings made through the same A/D D/A process where the only difference is that they are two takes of the same recording.
Certainly. Cap1 and cap2 were two files recorded through same path. Their difference is a noise signal, maybe with some subtle sound modulations, and no one has posted any ABX result that would proof an audible difference. Only unsupported claims on clearly audible differences.

The whole chain error must be the smallest possible, to perform such tests like these are. If the original x D/A - A/D chain is reliably distinguishable, then the resolution to pick up audible differences between capacitors is insufficient, even if they existed. We can only say we did not found them under existing test conditions. We cannot say they do not exist.
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:13 AM   #127
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
diyAudio Moderator
 
Mooly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by miero View Post
Several rounds of D/A A/D re-recordings might help to reveal what is added or lost during this process.
Good idea. That could reveal something although again, software analysis always seems to reveal some difference when there are two files to compare.
__________________
-------------------------------------------------------
Installing and using LTspice. From beginner to advanced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:13 AM   #128
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Quote:
Originally Posted by miero View Post
Several rounds of D/A A/D re-recordings might help to reveal what is added or lost during this process.
We have repeatedly tested this, with positive results. Even here at diyaudio.
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:18 AM   #129
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
diyAudio Moderator
 
Mooly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
The whole chain error must be the smallest possible, to perform such tests like these are. If the original x D/A - A/D chain is reliably distinguishable, then the resolution to pick up audible differences between capacitors is insufficient, even if they existed. We can only say we did not found them under existing test conditions. We cannot say they do not exist.
This is the crucial part as I see it, and why trying to determine a baseline of what can or can not be detected audibly (and that is the important part) is perhaps important to any future tests. And listeners have to be confident to say which they actually prefer whether it be a cheap device under test or a SOTA device and not just say, yes there is a difference.
__________________
-------------------------------------------------------
Installing and using LTspice. From beginner to advanced.
  Reply With Quote
Old 6th February 2014, 10:25 AM   #130
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
This is the crucial part as I see it, and why trying to determine a baseline of what can or can not be detected audibly
Yes, valid only and only under the test conditions used. No generalization is possible then.

In my system, A/D is the biggest issue. D/A is always the same and the difference between sound of D/A only and sound of D/A-A/D recorded file is reliably detectable.
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html

Last edited by PMA; 6th February 2014 at 10:28 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Listening Test 2 Mooly Everything Else 1 24th November 2013 10:25 AM
Listening Test 1 Mooly Everything Else 5 24th November 2013 10:24 AM
Ultimate listening test ... test your ears and audio chain PMA Everything Else 378 21st November 2013 10:20 AM
Resistor and Capacitor Listening Test SY Parts 45 30th August 2011 05:12 PM
Listening test of drivers ginetto61 Multi-Way 16 1st December 2009 05:48 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:38 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2