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Old 4th February 2014, 07:14 AM   #191
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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Default The results up to the point the test was stopped.

Well as promised here are the results. You can see that A was the film cap and B the electrolytics. There is a .text (notepad) file attached at the end of the post showing the results set out because the forum will rearrange the copy and paste into a mess, although I'll still do that too

In the context of this test it seems no statistical difference (is that the right word ?) was identified through listening alone. In other words you could not reliably tell which was which although subjectively some of you perhaps "felt" a difference existed. As was the intention of a test like this, the result shows that difference was elusive when it came to voting.

The comments were welcome and interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank (whose enthusiasm and willingness to do these as a pure listening test was much appreciated) went on to say,

"B substantially better than A, my guess this is the film cap: livier sound, more detail, sparkle; the harmonics are rendered with conviction - A is dulled, flat in comparison; this possibly would be chosen by people who have 'aggressive' systems; has a hint of the 'tube sound', ."

Tony's results were prematurely curtailed by "the code cracker". but I see his listening impressions were posted a few posts back and were quite perceptive saying,

"I personally preferred B, I felt it had more depth than A. I have a sneaking suspicion though that it is the string of electrolytics. It seemed to be a bit richer, perhaps have a little more reverb in it, which could well be added harmonics due to higher distortion of electrolytics".

Perhaps there, a case of knowing what you like when you hear it... the subjectivity debate. And actually... both Tony and Frank subjectively, off the cuff in the context of this test, preferred B to A although Frank suspected B was the film cap

Thanks again to all that voted.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there we have it. It would have been good if the test could have run a bit longer but it was fun while it lasted

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)

fas42 Test01 Electroylitic A No
fas42 Test02 Electroylitic B Yes
fas42 Test03 Film B No
fas42 Test04 Film A Yes
fas42 Test05 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test06 Film A Yes
fas42 Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test08 Film A Yes
fas42 Test09 Electrolytic A No
fas42 Test10 Film B No
fas42 Test11 Film B No
fas42 Test12 Film A Yes


Copy and paste of key.

Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film

Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.

fas42 cap test results. Copy and paste from pm/s.

A: 1, 4, 6
B: 2, 3, 5, 7

A: 8, 9, 12
B: 10, 11

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)

Barleywater Test01 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test02 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test03 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test04 Film B No
Barleywater Test05 Electrolytic A No
Barleywater Test06 Film B No
Barleywater Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test08 Film B No
Barleywater Test09 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test10 Film B No
Barleywater Test11 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test12 Film A Yes


Copy and paste of key.

Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film

Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.

Barleywater, cap test results. Copy and paste from pm.

A:
01 02 03 05 11 12

B:
04 06 07 08 09 10

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)

wintermute Test01 Electroylitic B Yes
wintermute Test02 Electroylitic A No
wintermute Test03 Film B No
wintermute Test04 Film A Yes
wintermute Test05 Electrolytic A No
wintermute Test06 Film - ---
wintermute Test07 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test08 Film - ---
wintermute Test09 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test10 Film - ---
wintermute Test11 Film - ---
wintermute Test12 Film - ---

Copy and paste of key.

Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film

Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.

test01 B
test02 A
test03 B
test04 A
test05 A
Attached Files
File Type: txt Collated Results Passives.txt (4.8 KB, 4 views)
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Old 4th February 2014, 07:35 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico Ras View Post
A buddy and I last night could not even pick the difference between A & B, but when compared to a real piano (he played I listened, I played he listened - his daytime job is piano tuning) there is an extreme difference, neither A or B even sounds close to a piano, it sounds like what it is a recording.
This was also how I felt, ie the piano did not sound very realistic. However I have heard very realistic piano on my system. I think that the reason that I preferred B (the electrolytics) was because my perception was that it had more reverb, something that I felt was missing from the piano in the track. We have a piano in the next room which my daughter plays daily, there are many hard surfaces, so what I am familiar with on a daily basis has a lot of reverb.

Note that different Piano's also have very different sounds live too, so it is possible that the piano in this particular recording is a more "dead" sounding one.

Also I'd like to Add, that I was planning on doing the sorting test again from scratch, the five results were the ones I had up to the point I decided I was not in the right frame of mind. I was planning to have another go after having a couple of beers on another day I was less tired. Overthinking I suspect reduces the ability to get it right. ah well such is life

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Old 4th February 2014, 08:13 AM   #193
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Sorry this post was a bit later than intended as responce to Jay's comments.

Some said Karl's recording lacked in almost every respect. I actually think it was very nicely done and hope it served his purpose. He has done an exceptional job with what he had available to him.

Jay, I do not usually listen for discrepancies in components but the holistic performance as the engineer or artist anticipated me to hear it. I don't have control over his recording equipment nor has he control over my reproduction equipment, good or bad as it may be, I enjoy or dislike what is served up to me. I have never blamed my gear or electrolytic capacitors for hating Justin's Beaver, I just don't like the CT that is all.

I do not believe that the differences in the A & B was enough to cause me to like or dislike either of the audio streams Nor I could hear any hidden nuances or noises in either and I would be lying if I said so.

I liked the piece of music very much. Karl please give the detail of the CD, I would like to get it.

Like your rocker buddy, I listen to music and speech on my (selected) gear as much as 14 hours per day. without getting fatigued

I have been exposed to several systems that are often name dropped in forums owned by friends that I find very fatiguing as much as being irritating after only a short while of listening. I don't believe it has any bearing on whether my ears are golden but my wife's continuous moaning is also very fatiguing.

I think the only design requirement for an amplifier is that it must be as linear as practically possible over the bandwidth of interest and at the level that you choose to listen.

I cannot see that good hearing being a requirement to build amps from Pass, JLH or Higara, I think good sight might be better.

Jay this is not directed at you but, it is absolutely mind blowing what audiophiles claim that they can hear. If your hearing is so incredibly precise driving to work on a motorcycle blindfolded should be no problem at all.
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Last edited by Nico Ras; 4th February 2014 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 4th February 2014, 09:17 AM   #194
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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Thanks for the kind words Nico, appreciate it

The disc was an oldie, Con amore, a compilation with Kyung Wha Chung on violin and Philip Moll on piano. Looks to have been reissued at bargain price

Con Amore (Brahms, Kreisler, Elgar): Amazon.co.uk: Music
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Old 4th February 2014, 11:31 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
Thanks for the kind words Nico, appreciate it

The disc was an oldie, Con amore, a compilation with Kyung Wha Chung on violin and Philip Moll on piano. Looks to have been reissued at bargain price

Con Amore (Brahms, Kreisler, Elgar): Amazon.co.uk: Music
Thanks Mooly for the CD I will get it. I did not know that you were into ethnic music. In any case I have only lately become very aware of the excellent quality musicians emerging from the Far East. On the other hand if you have a billion people there must be a capable musician amongst them.
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Last edited by Nico Ras; 4th February 2014 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 4th February 2014, 12:15 PM   #196
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Well the test ended prematurely before i could muscle up.. and i did pick -a as the film cap, B was a bit bright and sounded like an E-cap ...

Should be good for at least a cup of tea reward ....
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Old 4th February 2014, 03:12 PM   #197
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Default Sound advice

Can anyone suggest where to best position my tweeters?
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File Type: jpg tweeter.jpg (109.5 KB, 45 views)
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Old 5th February 2014, 12:00 PM   #198
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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I'm going to start a new thread shortly to try and investigate this cap audibility question a bit further. I know some of you wanted to try the files and it was all cut short abruptly.

I've got some ideas floating around for a new kind of test but it needs you guys to tell me what you think of this track quality wise. Also the test won't involve lots of downloading... its really basic and simple.

Give it your very best shot... listen on the very best you have available to you be it speakers or headphones. Jay... you too

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5tbqnyplh...ile%20Test.wav
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Old 5th February 2014, 12:12 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Well the test ended prematurely before i could muscle up.. and i did pick -a as the film cap, B was a bit bright and sounded like an E-cap ...

Should be good for at least a cup of tea reward ....
Ditto.

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Old 5th February 2014, 12:25 PM   #200
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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New thread here:
Component audibility. Fact or fiction ?
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