Well, I only did roughly per chance; yet the differences I was using to sort them by stood out strongly - it's a case of picking the 'right' differences,. No wonder group DBTs always lead to dead ends ...
I'll just repeat the assessment in my PM:
"B substantially better than A, my guess this is the film cap: livelier sound, more detail, sparkle; the harmonics are rendered with conviction - A is dulled, flat in comparison; this possibly would be chosen by people who have 'aggressive' systems; has a hint of the 'tube sound'"
Hehe read my stage(2) "hypothesis". You perfectly describe the difference characteristics of the sound like I do, except that for different sample
I have done this ABX twice (5/5 and 7/7) so the chance for me to have things "mixed up" is I believe less than you do.
I grouped B in group "R" because they are ROUNDED (or dull) and A in group "B" because they are BRIGHT (livelier, sparkle).
A surprise is that B has higher gain than A. And I knew this after I have done my ABX. So there is possibility that what I thought A (bright one) was actually B (higher gain) because what I did was to listen to the "amplitude" of higher trebles, where actually B has higher overall gain than A. So I have a chance for mistake also here??
But I have never made this "0/10 mistake" before so I have confidence with my accuracy. Off topic story, I'm a computer guy. Sometimes it is stressful when your program or system implementation generate error during live or implementation (e.g. your program says you have to pay $$$ to wrong person). But because of good statistics in my accuracy I have had confident and when there is complaint/report I am calm and believe I'm not the one who "miscalculate".
Imo, you described the characters of B perfectly. And interestingly you relate it to the electrolytes like I think it should. And I can easily prefer B if not from experience I know that something like this sound fatiguing in the long run (And Dan a.k.a Max Headroom agreed with this)
I only got up to 6 before this pre-mature end and got the same results except for file 5 , my preliminary pick was different from the results you posted by Jay, i had file 5 as A and the rest as you posted, no software or animals were used or abused in doing so ..
I thought A to be the film cap ....
I thought A to be the film cap ....
A buddy and I last night could not even pick the difference between A & B, but when compared to a real piano (he played I listened, I played he listened - his daytime job is piano tuning) there is an extreme difference, neither A or B even sounds close to a piano, it sounds like what it is a recording. We saw little point in comparing different components for their difference.
We came to a simple the conclusion that although you can recognize your mother's voice over the telephone, and you may chose one make of phone over another for its apparent quality, neither can ever sound even near what it is like when your mom actually talks to you.
All systems are flawed and placing a lot of adjective in the sentence describing what you hear in a system is a myth and applies to you only.
We came to a simple the conclusion that although you can recognize your mother's voice over the telephone, and you may chose one make of phone over another for its apparent quality, neither can ever sound even near what it is like when your mom actually talks to you.
All systems are flawed and placing a lot of adjective in the sentence describing what you hear in a system is a myth and applies to you only.
There was a big loss of fidelity in creating Mooly's samples. Get the real CD (of the same recording) if you want to find out how much of this loss. PMA's samples are of much better fidelity.
Of course everyone have opinions that apply at least to themselves. Both of you couldn't pick the differences between A & B, so comparing different components has little point to both of you.
The difference is anyhow obvious for me, so it cannot be argued about my different opinion. What can be argued from my long time hypothesis is this:
Even if people cannot hear differences, it doesn't mean the difference doesn't affect them. It is because conscious sensory and subconscious sensory work at different level (and may be different part of the brain). People like me, with special "right brain" capability can see/feel/hear/taste small-amplitude differences. Regarding the effect to anyone else (beside me), it is still hypothesis but to some extent it is proven.
You were aware that (from some reasons) you denied some statistics/data here.
Meditate on these words: "Golden ears, a curse or a blessing?"
People acuity in hearing "sparkles", "pace", "dynamics", and other audio virtues do not start there. It starts from sensitivity for disturbance. A stroke of chalk on whiteboard, a loud sound in discotheques, many other sounds in nature can be a disturbance to some ears.
I have been lucky to not lose focus from enjoyment aspect of listening to music (well, I have been lost once, but I found my way back on track).
My point was what are you listening for when comparing A & B which one sounds like it might be closer to reality, or are you trying to mathematically A - B and B - A in your head as if it may be important - in music it is not. If you do not like Cindy Lauper a certain type of capacitors will not change it.
I also think people who claim golden ears are a myth and a figment of their imagination. How is golden ears established and how often need it be calibrated and are there higher graded ears, say platinum. Seeing is believing, everything else is hear-say.
I own a very large music collection and I truly admit nothing sounds like reality and why would it, that is not the reason for having a large music collection, it is for enjoyment, not nitpicking components. If one had to nitpick everything in life it would not be worth living. It is what the sound engineer would like you to hear (or not hear) what ever gear the listener chooses, is of little consequence to him. I have seen recording engineers and artists come to blows over what and how it is being recorded.
Unless you have developed an affinity for a certain component in the same way as adding salt to your meal or sugar to your tea making it more palatable. So you buy/build sound reproduction equipment that adds the amount of impurities to the recording in order to stimulate your particular auditory system.
I think Jay hit it on the head "not lose focus from enjoyment aspect of listening to music" which is the essence of it all. It is not about hearing the guy playing with his left or right hand, whether you can hear the sweat dripping on his glasses or whether he scratches his crotch and you can hear he is wearing woman's underwear. It is simply the pleasurable (or not) stimulation you get from listening to a particular music.
I also think people who claim golden ears are a myth and a figment of their imagination. How is golden ears established and how often need it be calibrated and are there higher graded ears, say platinum. Seeing is believing, everything else is hear-say.
I own a very large music collection and I truly admit nothing sounds like reality and why would it, that is not the reason for having a large music collection, it is for enjoyment, not nitpicking components. If one had to nitpick everything in life it would not be worth living. It is what the sound engineer would like you to hear (or not hear) what ever gear the listener chooses, is of little consequence to him. I have seen recording engineers and artists come to blows over what and how it is being recorded.
Unless you have developed an affinity for a certain component in the same way as adding salt to your meal or sugar to your tea making it more palatable. So you buy/build sound reproduction equipment that adds the amount of impurities to the recording in order to stimulate your particular auditory system.
I think Jay hit it on the head "not lose focus from enjoyment aspect of listening to music" which is the essence of it all. It is not about hearing the guy playing with his left or right hand, whether you can hear the sweat dripping on his glasses or whether he scratches his crotch and you can hear he is wearing woman's underwear. It is simply the pleasurable (or not) stimulation you get from listening to a particular music.
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The results up to the point the test was stopped.
Well as promised here are the results. You can see that A was the film cap and B the electrolytics. There is a .text (notepad) file attached at the end of the post showing the results set out because the forum will rearrange the copy and paste into a mess, although I'll still do that too
In the context of this test it seems no statistical difference (is that the right word ?) was identified through listening alone. In other words you could not reliably tell which was which although subjectively some of you perhaps "felt" a difference existed. As was the intention of a test like this, the result shows that difference was elusive when it came to voting.
The comments were welcome and interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank (whose enthusiasm and willingness to do these as a pure listening test was much appreciated) went on to say,
"B substantially better than A, my guess this is the film cap: livier sound, more detail, sparkle; the harmonics are rendered with conviction - A is dulled, flat in comparison; this possibly would be chosen by people who have 'aggressive' systems; has a hint of the 'tube sound', ."
Tony's results were prematurely curtailed by "the code cracker". but I see his listening impressions were posted a few posts back and were quite perceptive saying,
"I personally preferred B, I felt it had more depth than A. I have a sneaking suspicion though that it is the string of electrolytics. It seemed to be a bit richer, perhaps have a little more reverb in it, which could well be added harmonics due to higher distortion of electrolytics".
Perhaps there, a case of knowing what you like when you hear it... the subjectivity debate. And actually... both Tony and Frank subjectively, off the cuff in the context of this test, preferred B to A although Frank suspected B was the film cap
Thanks again to all that voted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there we have it. It would have been good if the test could have run a bit longer but it was fun while it lasted
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
fas42 Test01 Electroylitic A No
fas42 Test02 Electroylitic B Yes
fas42 Test03 Film B No
fas42 Test04 Film A Yes
fas42 Test05 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test06 Film A Yes
fas42 Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test08 Film A Yes
fas42 Test09 Electrolytic A No
fas42 Test10 Film B No
fas42 Test11 Film B No
fas42 Test12 Film A Yes
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
fas42 cap test results. Copy and paste from pm/s.
A: 1, 4, 6
B: 2, 3, 5, 7
A: 8, 9, 12
B: 10, 11
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
Barleywater Test01 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test02 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test03 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test04 Film B No
Barleywater Test05 Electrolytic A No
Barleywater Test06 Film B No
Barleywater Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test08 Film B No
Barleywater Test09 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test10 Film B No
Barleywater Test11 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test12 Film A Yes
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
Barleywater, cap test results. Copy and paste from pm.
A:
01 02 03 05 11 12
B:
04 06 07 08 09 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
wintermute Test01 Electroylitic B Yes
wintermute Test02 Electroylitic A No
wintermute Test03 Film B No
wintermute Test04 Film A Yes
wintermute Test05 Electrolytic A No
wintermute Test06 Film - ---
wintermute Test07 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test08 Film - ---
wintermute Test09 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test10 Film - ---
wintermute Test11 Film - ---
wintermute Test12 Film - ---
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
test01 B
test02 A
test03 B
test04 A
test05 A
Well as promised here are the results. You can see that A was the film cap and B the electrolytics. There is a .text (notepad) file attached at the end of the post showing the results set out because the forum will rearrange the copy and paste into a mess, although I'll still do that too
In the context of this test it seems no statistical difference (is that the right word ?) was identified through listening alone. In other words you could not reliably tell which was which although subjectively some of you perhaps "felt" a difference existed. As was the intention of a test like this, the result shows that difference was elusive when it came to voting.
The comments were welcome and interesting...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank (whose enthusiasm and willingness to do these as a pure listening test was much appreciated) went on to say,
"B substantially better than A, my guess this is the film cap: livier sound, more detail, sparkle; the harmonics are rendered with conviction - A is dulled, flat in comparison; this possibly would be chosen by people who have 'aggressive' systems; has a hint of the 'tube sound', ."
Tony's results were prematurely curtailed by "the code cracker". but I see his listening impressions were posted a few posts back and were quite perceptive saying,
"I personally preferred B, I felt it had more depth than A. I have a sneaking suspicion though that it is the string of electrolytics. It seemed to be a bit richer, perhaps have a little more reverb in it, which could well be added harmonics due to higher distortion of electrolytics".
Perhaps there, a case of knowing what you like when you hear it... the subjectivity debate. And actually... both Tony and Frank subjectively, off the cuff in the context of this test, preferred B to A although Frank suspected B was the film cap
Thanks again to all that voted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there we have it. It would have been good if the test could have run a bit longer but it was fun while it lasted
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
fas42 Test01 Electroylitic A No
fas42 Test02 Electroylitic B Yes
fas42 Test03 Film B No
fas42 Test04 Film A Yes
fas42 Test05 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test06 Film A Yes
fas42 Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
fas42 Test08 Film A Yes
fas42 Test09 Electrolytic A No
fas42 Test10 Film B No
fas42 Test11 Film B No
fas42 Test12 Film A Yes
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
fas42 cap test results. Copy and paste from pm/s.
A: 1, 4, 6
B: 2, 3, 5, 7
A: 8, 9, 12
B: 10, 11
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
Barleywater Test01 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test02 Electroylitic A No
Barleywater Test03 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test04 Film B No
Barleywater Test05 Electrolytic A No
Barleywater Test06 Film B No
Barleywater Test07 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test08 Film B No
Barleywater Test09 Electrolytic B Yes
Barleywater Test10 Film B No
Barleywater Test11 Film A Yes
Barleywater Test12 Film A Yes
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
Barleywater, cap test results. Copy and paste from pm.
A:
01 02 03 05 11 12
B:
04 06 07 08 09 10
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Participant. File. Actual. Match choice Result. (Yes for correct, no for incorrect)
wintermute Test01 Electroylitic B Yes
wintermute Test02 Electroylitic A No
wintermute Test03 Film B No
wintermute Test04 Film A Yes
wintermute Test05 Electrolytic A No
wintermute Test06 Film - ---
wintermute Test07 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test08 Film - ---
wintermute Test09 Electrolytic - ---
wintermute Test10 Film - ---
wintermute Test11 Film - ---
wintermute Test12 Film - ---
Copy and paste of key.
Test01 = Electroylitic
Test02 = Electroylitic
Test03 = Film
Test04 = Film
Test05 = Electroylitic
Test06 = Film
Test07 = Electroylitic
Test08 = Film
Test09 = Electroylitic
Test10 = Film
Test11 = Film
Test12 = Film
Standard reference files.
A = Film
B = Electroylitic Chain.
test01 B
test02 A
test03 B
test04 A
test05 A
This was also how I felt, ie the piano did not sound very realistic. However I have heard very realistic piano on my system. I think that the reason that I preferred B (the electrolytics) was because my perception was that it had more reverb, something that I felt was missing from the piano in the track. We have a piano in the next room which my daughter plays daily, there are many hard surfaces, so what I am familiar with on a daily basis has a lot of reverb.
Note that different Piano's also have very different sounds live too, so it is possible that the piano in this particular recording is a more "dead" sounding one.
Also I'd like to Add, that I was planning on doing the sorting test again from scratch, the five results were the ones I had up to the point I decided I was not in the right frame of mind. I was planning to have another go after having a couple of beers on another day I was less tired. Overthinking I suspect reduces the ability to get it right. ah well such is life
Tony.
Sorry this post was a bit later than intended as responce to Jay's comments.
Some said Karl's recording lacked in almost every respect. I actually think it was very nicely done and hope it served his purpose. He has done an exceptional job with what he had available to him.
Jay, I do not usually listen for discrepancies in components but the holistic performance as the engineer or artist anticipated me to hear it. I don't have control over his recording equipment nor has he control over my reproduction equipment, good or bad as it may be, I enjoy or dislike what is served up to me. I have never blamed my gear or electrolytic capacitors for hating Justin's Beaver, I just don't like the CT that is all.
I do not believe that the differences in the A & B was enough to cause me to like or dislike either of the audio streams Nor I could hear any hidden nuances or noises in either and I would be lying if I said so.
I liked the piece of music very much. Karl please give the detail of the CD, I would like to get it.
Like your rocker buddy, I listen to music and speech on my (selected) gear as much as 14 hours per day. without getting fatigued
I have been exposed to several systems that are often name dropped in forums owned by friends that I find very fatiguing as much as being irritating after only a short while of listening. I don't believe it has any bearing on whether my ears are golden but my wife's continuous moaning is also very fatiguing.
I think the only design requirement for an amplifier is that it must be as linear as practically possible over the bandwidth of interest and at the level that you choose to listen.
I cannot see that good hearing being a requirement to build amps from Pass, JLH or Higara, I think good sight might be better.
Jay this is not directed at you but, it is absolutely mind blowing what audiophiles claim that they can hear. If your hearing is so incredibly precise driving to work on a motorcycle blindfolded should be no problem at all.
Some said Karl's recording lacked in almost every respect. I actually think it was very nicely done and hope it served his purpose. He has done an exceptional job with what he had available to him.
Jay, I do not usually listen for discrepancies in components but the holistic performance as the engineer or artist anticipated me to hear it. I don't have control over his recording equipment nor has he control over my reproduction equipment, good or bad as it may be, I enjoy or dislike what is served up to me. I have never blamed my gear or electrolytic capacitors for hating Justin's Beaver, I just don't like the C
T that is all.I do not believe that the differences in the A & B was enough to cause me to like or dislike either of the audio streams
Nor I could hear any hidden nuances or noises in either and I would be lying if I said so.I liked the piece of music very much. Karl please give the detail of the CD, I would like to get it.
Like your rocker buddy, I listen to music and speech on my (selected) gear as much as 14 hours per day. without getting fatigued
I have been exposed to several systems that are often name dropped in forums owned by friends that I find very fatiguing as much as being irritating after only a short while of listening. I don't believe it has any bearing on whether my ears are golden but my wife's continuous moaning is also very fatiguing.
I think the only design requirement for an amplifier is that it must be as linear as practically possible over the bandwidth of interest and at the level that you choose to listen.
I cannot see that good hearing being a requirement to build amps from Pass, JLH or Higara, I think good sight might be better.
Jay this is not directed at you but, it is absolutely mind blowing what audiophiles claim that they can hear. If your hearing is so incredibly precise driving to work on a motorcycle blindfolded should be no problem at all.
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Thanks for the kind words Nico, appreciate it
The disc was an oldie, Con amore, a compilation with Kyung Wha Chung on violin and Philip Moll on piano. Looks to have been reissued at bargain price
Con Amore (Brahms, Kreisler, Elgar): Amazon.co.uk: Music
The disc was an oldie, Con amore, a compilation with Kyung Wha Chung on violin and Philip Moll on piano. Looks to have been reissued at bargain price
Con Amore (Brahms, Kreisler, Elgar): Amazon.co.uk: Music
Thanks for the kind words Nico, appreciate it
The disc was an oldie, Con amore, a compilation with Kyung Wha Chung on violin and Philip Moll on piano. Looks to have been reissued at bargain price
Con Amore (Brahms, Kreisler, Elgar): Amazon.co.uk: Music
Thanks Mooly for the CD I will get it. I did not know that you were into ethnic music.
In any case I have only lately become very aware of the excellent quality musicians emerging from the Far East. On the other hand if you have a billion people there must be a capable musician amongst them.
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I'm going to start a new thread shortly to try and investigate this cap audibility question a bit further. I know some of you wanted to try the files and it was all cut short abruptly.
I've got some ideas floating around for a new kind of test but it needs you guys to tell me what you think of this track quality wise. Also the test won't involve lots of downloading... its really basic and simple.
Give it your very best shot... listen on the very best you have available to you be it speakers or headphones. Jay... you too
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5tbqnyplhdnuku/New Audio File Test.wav
I've got some ideas floating around for a new kind of test but it needs you guys to tell me what you think of this track quality wise. Also the test won't involve lots of downloading... its really basic and simple.
Give it your very best shot... listen on the very best you have available to you be it speakers or headphones. Jay... you too
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5tbqnyplhdnuku/New Audio File Test.wav
Well the test ended prematurely before i could muscle up..
Should be good for at least a cup of tea reward ....
Ditto.
Dan.
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