Let's move this to a different thread so the measurements thread can stick to measurements.
Well, when it comes to personal preferences not a lot makes sense. We like and dislike what we like and dislike for God knows what reasons. Not all of which necessarily have anything to do with physics.
How 'bout some known mechanisms which could produce nonlinearities in a typical audio cable?
se
fdegrove said:Yes, that's a commonly held belief amongst audio buffs.
While it makes sense to me, much to my surprise I can get good results with clad steel core cables as digital interconnects too.
I know of Dr. Dusan Klimo in Germany advocating these for analogue transfer also...Beats me.
And another dealer of audio components, again in Germany claiming Welwyn resistors with steel end caps being excellent for audio.
As you said, go figure...
Well, when it comes to personal preferences not a lot makes sense. We like and dislike what we like and dislike for God knows what reasons. Not all of which necessarily have anything to do with physics.
How 'bout some known mechanisms which could produce nonlinearities in a typical audio cable?
se
Wasn't there a guy who went all the way with this and marketed mu metal wire for audio? And wasn't it reviewed well?
So, to recap what I've read here in the past few months: sometimes people like ferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonmagnetic steel. Sometimes they don't. What does this suggest about the magnetic properties of metals as being a significant variable affecting the audible properties of wire and cable?
So, to recap what I've read here in the past few months: sometimes people like ferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonmagnetic steel. Sometimes they don't. What does this suggest about the magnetic properties of metals as being a significant variable affecting the audible properties of wire and cable?
SY said:
Hmmmm. If there was, I don't have any recollection of it.
Like the say, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.
But seriously, personal tastes and preferences are a whole other matter from what the physics might be. I could care less about what others might like or dislike. But I do find the actual physics interesting.
se
Quoted Material from the Cable Distortion Measurement Thread
Hi, Frank.
Hmm, how many Dr. De Ceunincks could there be?
: )
Unless my source is wrong, it seems that silver is more prone to electromigration than copper. I've ran across the term "silver migration".
From:
http://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/A2D...E12699E17/Reliability_of_Cu_metallization.pdf
Most importantly, Ag is a VERY fast diffuser in dielectrics,
especially in the presence of an electric field.
...
This is not only true for Ag, but applies to Au and Cu as well, but for Ag, it appears to be more important.
Are you hinting that electromigration is something good?
Having now read a little about this, the link you provided was interesting.
I will add that my interest here is mostly to see if I learn something that may make a difference in an amplifier I'm making. It's just a headphone amplifier and I want to use point to point wiring. I've learned that for my headphone amp, a 30mV signal is actually loud. Looking at the AP datasheet, it seems like -120 to -140 db down from 30mV is a rather challanging measurement.
JF
Hi, Frank.
fdegrove said:
Hmm, how many Dr. De Ceunincks could there be?
fdegrove said:
: )
fdegrove said:
Unless my source is wrong, it seems that silver is more prone to electromigration than copper. I've ran across the term "silver migration".
From:
http://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/A2D...E12699E17/Reliability_of_Cu_metallization.pdf
Most importantly, Ag is a VERY fast diffuser in dielectrics,
especially in the presence of an electric field.
...
This is not only true for Ag, but applies to Au and Cu as well, but for Ag, it appears to be more important.
Are you hinting that electromigration is something good?
fdegrove said:
Having now read a little about this, the link you provided was interesting.
I will add that my interest here is mostly to see if I learn something that may make a difference in an amplifier I'm making. It's just a headphone amplifier and I want to use point to point wiring. I've learned that for my headphone amp, a 30mV signal is actually loud. Looking at the AP datasheet, it seems like -120 to -140 db down from 30mV is a rather challanging measurement.
JF
if you don't know it can't be worth talking about
"Hmmmm. If there was, I don't have any recollection of it."
Maybe it has something to do with being banned from the A.A. cable thread...... I believe the cable in question was the Magnan interconnect. High resistivity for the signal but not ground wire is the goal. They now use different materials. I will not attempt to discuss the physics behind it for the obvious reasons.
"Hmmmm. If there was, I don't have any recollection of it."
Maybe it has something to do with being banned from the A.A. cable thread...... I believe the cable in question was the Magnan interconnect. High resistivity for the signal but not ground wire is the goal. They now use different materials. I will not attempt to discuss the physics behind it for the obvious reasons.
millwood said:
IMHO, most of us, most of the time get by fine without scientific proofs (for better or worse). I don't need scientific proof why I prefer one beer (usually German) over another. In this case, scientific proof would not aid me one whit.
Now, I realize that Steve is focusing on a technical discussion, but to think that that is the only way to view the world seems a bit "religious".
JF
Hi,
That's true but I didn't say electromigration is a problem at audio levels.
The reason I brought it up is that the problem that occurs with electromigration gives us insight in the importance of having an as low possible crystal count within the wire.
ELECTROMIGRATION
Of course not.
Thanks...That page is the work of Dr. De Ceuninck and his research team BTW.
I doubt you'll find much here that would make a night and day difference in just an amp alone but some of the ideas brought forward may still be of general interest to you.
At least, I'd hope so.
Cheers,
That's true but I didn't say electromigration is a problem at audio levels.
The reason I brought it up is that the problem that occurs with electromigration gives us insight in the importance of having an as low possible crystal count within the wire.
ELECTROMIGRATION
Of course not.
Thanks...That page is the work of Dr. De Ceuninck and his research team BTW.
I doubt you'll find much here that would make a night and day difference in just an amp alone but some of the ideas brought forward may still be of general interest to you.
At least, I'd hope so.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:
Okay, good point.
fdegrove said:
Okay, found that one too. Printed it and need to read more of it. I was surprised that Cadence was involved with something like this. I had only know of Cadence as the new parent company of OrCad (schematic capture company). (Could be a different Cadence though...)
fdegrove said:
Okay, that was a smaller mystery.
Right, who knows. Thinking about wire is the basics. We have to get wire right. The perfect amplifier is wire with gain, right?
Anyway, it's a lot of work to make an amplifier. (I just don't want to find out later that I installed all the microdiodes backwards : ).
Thanks for the posts/hints.
JF
Electromigration is a surface phenomenon and totally irrelevant to wires. It's something which people laying conductive traces on surfaces need to be aware of (whether at audio frequencies or even DC). If you're designing a switch with silver contacts to be used in Maylasia, that's fine. Or trying to lay micron-size aluminization runs on a chip as close as possible to one another, fine. In my previous life designing thick film sensors, this was a serious issue, but only for traces on a substrate run close to one another.
But the idea that things inside a wire are migrating around from this mechanism is not correct. And so, by the way, is the white paper's introductory remarks about lattices and conductivity.
But the idea that things inside a wire are migrating around from this mechanism is not correct. And so, by the way, is the white paper's introductory remarks about lattices and conductivity.
SE Are You Able To Talk In Subjective Terms............
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Let's move this to a different thread so the measurements thread can stick to measurements.
You mean this one is allowed to contain unproven subjective content ???.
Well, when it comes to personal preferences not a lot makes sense. We like and dislike what we like and dislike for God knows what reasons. Not all of which necessarily have anything to do with physics.
I reckon that there are some very good reasons for subjective sonic preferences, and these include physics, chemistry and biology reasons.
I find that balanced people know honest good sound when they hear it and will happily say so.
I also reckon that unbalanced sounding systems can unbalance the long term listener, and toxic materials in the signal are part of this.
Jitter magnitude and spectrum in digital systems is another I reckon.
Oversampling noise shaping is another too I reckon.
How 'bout some known mechanisms which could produce nonlinearities in a typical audio cable?
Mechanical motor action movement of conductors would be one.
Dielectric properties is another.
Metals/alloys/solders are another.
Eric.
Originally posted by Steve Eddy
Let's move this to a different thread so the measurements thread can stick to measurements.
You mean this one is allowed to contain unproven subjective content ???.
Well, when it comes to personal preferences not a lot makes sense. We like and dislike what we like and dislike for God knows what reasons. Not all of which necessarily have anything to do with physics.
I reckon that there are some very good reasons for subjective sonic preferences, and these include physics, chemistry and biology reasons.
I find that balanced people know honest good sound when they hear it and will happily say so.
I also reckon that unbalanced sounding systems can unbalance the long term listener, and toxic materials in the signal are part of this.
Jitter magnitude and spectrum in digital systems is another I reckon.
Oversampling noise shaping is another too I reckon.
How 'bout some known mechanisms which could produce nonlinearities in a typical audio cable?
Mechanical motor action movement of conductors would be one.
Dielectric properties is another.
Metals/alloys/solders are another.
Eric.
JF and Frank, I found your link on 'Electromigration' interesting. Of course, it also happens with copper, and it happens internally, as well as on the surface.
I point out my old reference: 'Electron Microscopy of Interfaces in
Metals and Alloys' by Forwood, starting at p314: 6.4.1 "Faulted Defects Generated by the Movement of Boundaries in Electron Microscope Specimens"
It begins with: "A striking property of high-angle grain boundaries in pure polycrystalline copper(99.999%Cu) is that they are mobile in thin-foil electron microscope specimens at room temperature and rotate during observation..."
And it goes on from there with pictures and everything.
Of course we can only see the SURFACE, because we cannot look inside the metal itself, but the mechanism doesn't have to be a surface effect, exclusively.
I point out my old reference: 'Electron Microscopy of Interfaces in
Metals and Alloys' by Forwood, starting at p314: 6.4.1 "Faulted Defects Generated by the Movement of Boundaries in Electron Microscope Specimens"
It begins with: "A striking property of high-angle grain boundaries in pure polycrystalline copper(99.999%Cu) is that they are mobile in thin-foil electron microscope specimens at room temperature and rotate during observation..."
And it goes on from there with pictures and everything.
Of course we can only see the SURFACE, because we cannot look inside the metal itself, but the mechanism doesn't have to be a surface effect, exclusively.
Oh, by the way, I happened to stumble upon the source regarding something I'd said some time back about some researcher thinking he'd observed diodic behavior in copper wire but later found that it was due to the contacts.
It's from Metal Rectifiers, by H.K. Henisch, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1949.
HISTORY OF RECTIFIER DEVELOPMENT
WHEREAS the rectifier as we know it can be described as a recent development, the phenomenon of asymmetric conduction has been studied for a long time. The first observations were apparently made by Munck as early as 1834. Later (1874) these phenomenon were rediscovered by Braun and Schuster. Braun made observations on metal sulphides; Schuster detected certain anomalies in the resistance of short lengths of copper wire, and after some experiments traced these anomalies to the contacts. The characteristics of the copper to copper oxide junction were studied more systematically by Harckmann in 1905. Non-linearity of conduction in selenium cells was first observed by Adams and Day in 1876, and later by Siemens in 1877...
se
It's from Metal Rectifiers, by H.K. Henisch, Oxford at the Clarendon Press, 1949.
HISTORY OF RECTIFIER DEVELOPMENT
WHEREAS the rectifier as we know it can be described as a recent development, the phenomenon of asymmetric conduction has been studied for a long time. The first observations were apparently made by Munck as early as 1834. Later (1874) these phenomenon were rediscovered by Braun and Schuster. Braun made observations on metal sulphides; Schuster detected certain anomalies in the resistance of short lengths of copper wire, and after some experiments traced these anomalies to the contacts. The characteristics of the copper to copper oxide junction were studied more systematically by Harckmann in 1905. Non-linearity of conduction in selenium cells was first observed by Adams and Day in 1876, and later by Siemens in 1877...
se
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