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Old 23rd December 2003, 01:06 AM   #1
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Default Cable Distortion: Materials Science Free For All

Let's move this to a different thread so the measurements thread can stick to measurements.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Yes, that's a commonly held belief amongst audio buffs.
While it makes sense to me, much to my surprise I can get good results with clad steel core cables as digital interconnects too.

I know of Dr. Dusan Klimo in Germany advocating these for analogue transfer also...Beats me.

And another dealer of audio components, again in Germany claiming Welwyn resistors with steel end caps being excellent for audio.

As you said, go figure...
Well, when it comes to personal preferences not a lot makes sense. We like and dislike what we like and dislike for God knows what reasons. Not all of which necessarily have anything to do with physics.

Quote:
Maybe something I could ask Dr. De Ceuninck about as well. provided you'd like this sorted out that is?

If you like we could compose a little list with yet unsolved audio mysteries I could confront him with?
I mean these should be materials related of course as this is his field of research.

In case the idea appeals, let me know.
How 'bout some known mechanisms which could produce nonlinearities in a typical audio cable?

se
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Old 23rd December 2003, 01:47 AM   #2
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Wasn't there a guy who went all the way with this and marketed mu metal wire for audio? And wasn't it reviewed well?

So, to recap what I've read here in the past few months: sometimes people like ferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonmagnetic steel. Sometimes they don't. What does this suggest about the magnetic properties of metals as being a significant variable affecting the audible properties of wire and cable?
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Old 23rd December 2003, 01:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY
Wasn't there a guy who went all the way with this and marketed mu metal wire for audio? And wasn't it reviewed well?
Hmmmm. If there was, I don't have any recollection of it.

Quote:
So, to recap what I've read here in the past few months: sometimes people like ferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonferromagnetic materials. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they like nonmagnetic steel. Sometimes they don't. What does this suggest about the magnetic properties of metals as being a significant variable affecting the audible properties of wire and cable?
Like the say, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

But seriously, personal tastes and preferences are a whole other matter from what the physics might be. I could care less about what others might like or dislike. But I do find the actual physics interesting.

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Old 23rd December 2003, 03:43 AM   #4
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Quoted Material from the Cable Distortion Measurement Thread


Hi, Frank.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Anyway, for all of those who followed the previous thread where I said that Dr. De Ceuninck had measured distortion in wires:

There was a good reeason why I didn't want to disclose this professor's full name...
Hmm, how many Dr. De Ceunincks could there be?

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
So, here's the deal: I'll get in touch with the professor asap and ask him how much he can divulge on his research regarding his measurements and if we get lucky we'll come up with solid proof.
: )

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove

Ergo, hint #4 : Electromigration.
Unless my source is wrong, it seems that silver is more prone to electromigration than copper. I've ran across the term "silver migration".

From:
http://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/A2D5...allization.pdf


Most importantly, Ag is a VERY fast diffuser in dielectrics,
especially in the presence of an electric field.
...
This is not only true for Ag, but applies to Au and Cu as well, but for Ag, it appears to be more important.


Are you hinting that electromigration is something good?

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove

Electromigration study inside an electron microscope
Having now read a little about this, the link you provided was interesting.

I will add that my interest here is mostly to see if I learn something that may make a difference in an amplifier I'm making. It's just a headphone amplifier and I want to use point to point wiring. I've learned that for my headphone amp, a 30mV signal is actually loud. Looking at the AP datasheet, it seems like -120 to -140 db down from 30mV is a rather challanging measurement.


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Old 23rd December 2003, 03:55 AM   #5
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"Hmmmm. If there was, I don't have any recollection of it."

Maybe it has something to do with being banned from the A.A. cable thread...... I believe the cable in question was the Magnan interconnect. High resistivity for the signal but not ground wire is the goal. They now use different materials. I will not attempt to discuss the physics behind it for the obvious reasons.
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Old 23rd December 2003, 04:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnferrier
Hmm, how many Dr. De Ceunincks could there be?
A few. But I found him.

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Old 23rd December 2003, 10:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Yes, that's a commonly held belief amongst audio buffs.
Again, when was it OK to substitute scientific proofs with personal beliefs? It must be for Al Core's invention of the Internet,

I can find more people with a strong desire to buy that bridge in Brooklyn I have on sale. you want one?
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Old 23rd December 2003, 12:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by millwood
Again, when was it OK to substitute scientific proofs with personal beliefs?
IMHO, most of us, most of the time get by fine without scientific proofs (for better or worse). I don't need scientific proof why I prefer one beer (usually German) over another. In this case, scientific proof would not aid me one whit.

Now, I realize that Steve is focusing on a technical discussion, but to think that that is the only way to view the world seems a bit "religious".


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Old 23rd December 2003, 01:00 PM   #9
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Hi,

Quote:
Unless my source is wrong, it seems that silver is more prone to electromigration than copper. I've ran across the term "silver migration".
That's true but I didn't say electromigration is a problem at audio levels.

The reason I brought it up is that the problem that occurs with electromigration gives us insight in the importance of having an as low possible crystal count within the wire.

ELECTROMIGRATION

Quote:
Are you hinting that electromigration is something good?
Of course not.

Quote:
Having now read a little about this, the link you provided was interesting.
Thanks...That page is the work of Dr. De Ceuninck and his research team BTW.

Quote:
I will add that my interest here is mostly to see if I learn something that may make a difference in an amplifier I'm making.
I doubt you'll find much here that would make a night and day difference in just an amp alone but some of the ideas brought forward may still be of general interest to you.
At least, I'd hope so.

Cheers,
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Old 23rd December 2003, 01:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
The reason I brought it up is that the problem that occurs with electromigration gives us insight in the importance of having an as low possible crystal count within the wire.
Okay, good point.

Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
ELECTROMIGRATION
Okay, found that one too. Printed it and need to read more of it. I was surprised that Cadence was involved with something like this. I had only know of Cadence as the new parent company of OrCad (schematic capture company). (Could be a different Cadence though...)


Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
Thanks...That page is the work of Dr. De Ceuninck and his research team BTW.
Okay, that was a smaller mystery.


Quote:
Originally posted by fdegrove
I doubt you'll find much here that would make a night and day difference in just an amp alone but some of the ideas brought forward may still be of general interest to you.
At least, I'd hope so.
Right, who knows. Thinking about wire is the basics. We have to get wire right. The perfect amplifier is wire with gain, right?

Anyway, it's a lot of work to make an amplifier. (I just don't want to find out later that I installed all the microdiodes backwards : ).

Thanks for the posts/hints.


JF
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