Hi All,
I've been visiting these forums for quite some time now and have noticed how active and creative diy'ers here are. It's really inspiring
However, in searching around here, I have never seen anyone talk about the sustainability of audio. That is:
- is sustainability something that people here think about - and act to try to reduce in practice?
- what is the pollutive load of the audio industries - the various components used?
- are there some manufacturers who make a genuine effort to reduce their imprint on earth? And still make superb components/products? And if so, who are they?
To me sustainability matters, although I perceive it to not be that simple to make happen in the context of audio.
Might it also matter to others here at diyaudio?
Update on 13 August
To faciliate a somewhat focussed exchange here about sustainability in the audio industry I've drawn up a modified Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) chart that I suggest is used as a reference in relation to new posts in this thread (better suggestions are welcome).
Unfortunately I cannot attach the LCA chart to this post but it is attached to post #22. There's a link to this post here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/237696-sustainability-audio-3.html#post3594599
The idea is that e.g. when posting comments on a component, product or manufacturer's sustainability policies I suggest it is somehow related to the LCA chart's groupings.
In this way I reckon a more focussed exchange on this subject may be easier as well as a better overview of what a manufacturer actually does in terms of sustainability initiatives.
Greetings,
Jesper
I've been visiting these forums for quite some time now and have noticed how active and creative diy'ers here are. It's really inspiring
However, in searching around here, I have never seen anyone talk about the sustainability of audio. That is:
- is sustainability something that people here think about - and act to try to reduce in practice?
- what is the pollutive load of the audio industries - the various components used?
- are there some manufacturers who make a genuine effort to reduce their imprint on earth? And still make superb components/products? And if so, who are they?
To me sustainability matters, although I perceive it to not be that simple to make happen in the context of audio.
Might it also matter to others here at diyaudio?
Update on 13 August
To faciliate a somewhat focussed exchange here about sustainability in the audio industry I've drawn up a modified Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) chart that I suggest is used as a reference in relation to new posts in this thread (better suggestions are welcome).
Unfortunately I cannot attach the LCA chart to this post but it is attached to post #22. There's a link to this post here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/237696-sustainability-audio-3.html#post3594599
The idea is that e.g. when posting comments on a component, product or manufacturer's sustainability policies I suggest it is somehow related to the LCA chart's groupings.
In this way I reckon a more focussed exchange on this subject may be easier as well as a better overview of what a manufacturer actually does in terms of sustainability initiatives.
Greetings,
Jesper
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Hi DF96,
Thanks for replying ... & yes my impression also is that using NOS is a very usable entry into suitainability in audio. I also often reuse components from motherboards etc..
However, in many cases I find that it is not a practical solution as NOS components are not available, may not have usable specs anymore, or the like ... So I often find myself in need of new purchases. Something I reckon most people working in audio do as it's relatively rare to find NOS components in commercially available audio products.
Any ideas as what to do with new purchases?
Best regards,
Jesper
Thanks for replying ... & yes my impression also is that using NOS is a very usable entry into suitainability in audio. I also often reuse components from motherboards etc..
However, in many cases I find that it is not a practical solution as NOS components are not available, may not have usable specs anymore, or the like ... So I often find myself in need of new purchases. Something I reckon most people working in audio do as it's relatively rare to find NOS components in commercially available audio products.
Any ideas as what to do with new purchases?
Best regards,
Jesper
I almost dare not to admit at these forum, but as an electronics guy I use scavenged components from old PCB's. Scavenged semiconductor and HV elco's from SMPS can be very usefull. As the technology advances more and more tot SMT I collect these components usefull for my audio and radio hobby before they will be nowhere to be found. Also tweeters from cabinets with torn woofer surrounds can be re used.
Hi All,
I've been visiting these forums for quite some time now and have noticed how active and creative diy'ers here are. It's really inspiring
However, in searching around here, I have never seen anyone talk about the sustainability of audio. That is:
- is sustainability something that people here think about - and act to try to reduce in practice?
- what is the pollutive load of the audio industries - the various components used?
- are there some manufacturers who make a genuine effort to reduce their imprint on earth? And still make superb components/products? And if so, who are they?
To me sustainability matters, although I perceive it to not be that simple to make happen in the context of audio. Might it also matter to others here at diyaudio?
Greetings,
Jesper
you will see quite a bit recently from me on this subject in the blowtorch thread, enough that it generated a poll in a separate thread. my musings werent very popular ...
For true sustainability in audio you need to avoid electronics, because of both mineral and energy consumption. Just use handmade acoustic instruments.
On the other hand, provided you are not into using massive SET amplifiers as room heaters, it is likely that audio is only a very tiny part of the resources you consume just by staying alive and moving around. It is simply not possible for most of us to become cave-dwelling subsistence farmers again.
On the other hand, provided you are not into using massive SET amplifiers as room heaters, it is likely that audio is only a very tiny part of the resources you consume just by staying alive and moving around. It is simply not possible for most of us to become cave-dwelling subsistence farmers again.
Just some small remarks ,
imo diy stuff is built by enthusiasts to serve their need and will mostly contain better parts than commercially available sollutions for the same problem .
It is therefore likely that it will have a longer servicelife .
Diy stuff does not have a build in redundancy, is less likely to fail just days after the warrenty has expired.
Most modern consumerelectronics are not repaired but become garbage when this happens.
I recycle reuse parts from older projects and dead /trown away/dumped electronics .
Diy'rs can and will repair things when/if it suits them.
This means less E-waste over the same timeperiod.
I would like mainstream companies to build stuff that lasts , I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
Regards F.
imo diy stuff is built by enthusiasts to serve their need and will mostly contain better parts than commercially available sollutions for the same problem .
It is therefore likely that it will have a longer servicelife .
Diy stuff does not have a build in redundancy, is less likely to fail just days after the warrenty has expired.
Most modern consumerelectronics are not repaired but become garbage when this happens.
I recycle reuse parts from older projects and dead /trown away/dumped electronics .
Diy'rs can and will repair things when/if it suits them.
This means less E-waste over the same timeperiod.
I would like mainstream companies to build stuff that lasts , I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
Regards F.
I grew up in a world where broken things got mended and carried on for a bit longer. Given that we do need manufactured goods, that seems to be the best option. Unfortunately modern economies are based on the notion that people will buy things they don't need then throw them away when a new version comes out - they don't even wait for them to break! No hope at all of 'sustainability' while that is the norm.cannext said:
Nuclear is our best energy option. Unfortunately in Europe the greenies have ensured long delays while they build their windmills - which require at least the same amount of installed fossil-fueled plant to provide backup for calm days. Wind can never provide more than a small fraction of our energy needs, and it upsets grid stability too. From a power engineering point of view it would be difficult to come up with a worse source of energy.
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Hi all,
Interesting to notice that you all seem to have a perspective on sustainability ... Although I, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I myself frequently reuse parts from scrapped electronics my main angle on this is more like how to relate to the new purchases and developments made in audio.
It's my impression that components and technologies develop all the time and although reuse of already made items may be feasible in some respects it won't be in maybe 99.99% of cases (just a guess of mine). It may take too long time, may reduce component reliability (due to repeated soldering etc.), and may not allow for use of components that are desired due to a likely progress in audio.
So - without hopefully being too insisting on an "onwards perspective" I'd like to quote myself here:
Also, I'm aware that other sources of pollution (cars, home heating/cooling, other CO2 sources etc.) may contribute significantly to pollution, yet here in Denmark many people have two LCD TVs as well as a stereo, computer, computer screen, etc. All used electronic components. And - without knowing in detail - it's my impression that the materials used in audio components in general poses some load on the environment.
Personally, I'm an adherent to the cradle-to-cradle philosophy - that products can continue to be made but that they are part of a use/reuse/full recycle path where the component's materials are continuously recycled. Today this is hardly possible in audio, however, in another field companies like the North Face & Patagonia make a substantial effort to reuse materials in some/many of their goods.
Can it be done in audio - and if so - who does it?
So I would hope to have more of your inputs on this ...
Greetings,
Jesper
Interesting to notice that you all seem to have a perspective on sustainability ... Although I, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I myself frequently reuse parts from scrapped electronics my main angle on this is more like how to relate to the new purchases and developments made in audio.
It's my impression that components and technologies develop all the time and although reuse of already made items may be feasible in some respects it won't be in maybe 99.99% of cases (just a guess of mine). It may take too long time, may reduce component reliability (due to repeated soldering etc.), and may not allow for use of components that are desired due to a likely progress in audio.
So - without hopefully being too insisting on an "onwards perspective" I'd like to quote myself here:
Also, I'm aware that other sources of pollution (cars, home heating/cooling, other CO2 sources etc.) may contribute significantly to pollution, yet here in Denmark many people have two LCD TVs as well as a stereo, computer, computer screen, etc. All used electronic components. And - without knowing in detail - it's my impression that the materials used in audio components in general poses some load on the environment.
Personally, I'm an adherent to the cradle-to-cradle philosophy - that products can continue to be made but that they are part of a use/reuse/full recycle path where the component's materials are continuously recycled. Today this is hardly possible in audio, however, in another field companies like the North Face & Patagonia make a substantial effort to reuse materials in some/many of their goods.
Can it be done in audio - and if so - who does it?
So I would hope to have more of your inputs on this ...
Greetings,
Jesper
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Hi Gentlevoice,
I listen to Vinyl and CD but prefer live, mainly classical.
I want my playback to sound like live and I find what I consider to be the best components to do this no matter their age.
Further, what we do as DIYers is an art. We seek audio perfection and engineering elegance (or in some cases, snake oil) and admire it but are rarely satisfied and always looking for improvement.
Our global impact is probably positive because we recycle but this is totally unintended. Anyway how dare you imply that some bean-counter's notion of sustainability could ever have any relevance to our Art.
I listen to Vinyl and CD but prefer live, mainly classical.
I want my playback to sound like live and I find what I consider to be the best components to do this no matter their age.
Further, what we do as DIYers is an art. We seek audio perfection and engineering elegance (or in some cases, snake oil) and admire it but are rarely satisfied and always looking for improvement.
Our global impact is probably positive because we recycle but this is totally unintended. Anyway how dare you imply that some bean-counter's notion of sustainability could ever have any relevance to our Art.
I think,
You have to take into account changes in format..ie its easy to get people to dump equipment that can no longer play the latest format of music or video..
If you think about DIY audio..if the amplifiers and speakers are separate from the source this stops equipment being junked that is still working..also equipment can be modified to create better equipment..if its got built in CD or DVD players then its got a bigger chance of mechanical failure..this scraps the whole piece of equipment.
I think computers are probably one of the worst environmental impacts on the planet...the operating systems need bigger and better processors and bigger storage..they go out of fashion as fast as mobile phones. They print stupid amounts of paper work...etc..the advertising and junk mail..look at the power consumption linked to servers and screens..
The bottom line is sales and money drive the economy...a company cannot exist without sales..and this means the next new idea to make everything obsolete.
Its cheaper to use new material than recycle old electronic parts...this effects profit margin. most companies don't want you to use someone elses kit so its designed to be difficult to do it and replace parts.
So how do you reduce the impact when everything is designed to make you buy new and dump (not broken ) but out of vogue products. Fashion has another impact..DIY audio is normally a one off.
The next thing is the type of component<<surface mount..makes repair more difficult..then encapsulated parts...with a special company part number..multi layer circuit boards..etc
Eventually you won't be able to reuse parts because they will be part of a solid module..in that module only one part has failed but the whole thing is scrap!
One more thought..think what the impact of electronics is having on old cars<<how many will be on the road in another thirty years when you can't get the fuel system computer..again designed to not be repairable after a time period..I wonder if there is an in built timer in car computers that makes it slowly adjust the settings if its not serviced by the main dealer and shut down after a time set point...They wouldn't do that..never...how could you prove it when the resin block won't work anymore?
Regards
M. Gregg
You have to take into account changes in format..ie its easy to get people to dump equipment that can no longer play the latest format of music or video..
If you think about DIY audio..if the amplifiers and speakers are separate from the source this stops equipment being junked that is still working..also equipment can be modified to create better equipment..if its got built in CD or DVD players then its got a bigger chance of mechanical failure..this scraps the whole piece of equipment.
I think computers are probably one of the worst environmental impacts on the planet...the operating systems need bigger and better processors and bigger storage..they go out of fashion as fast as mobile phones. They print stupid amounts of paper work...etc..the advertising and junk mail..look at the power consumption linked to servers and screens..
The bottom line is sales and money drive the economy...a company cannot exist without sales..and this means the next new idea to make everything obsolete.
Its cheaper to use new material than recycle old electronic parts...this effects profit margin. most companies don't want you to use someone elses kit so its designed to be difficult to do it and replace parts.
So how do you reduce the impact when everything is designed to make you buy new and dump (not broken ) but out of vogue products. Fashion has another impact..DIY audio is normally a one off.
The next thing is the type of component<<surface mount..makes repair more difficult..then encapsulated parts...with a special company part number..multi layer circuit boards..etc
Eventually you won't be able to reuse parts because they will be part of a solid module..in that module only one part has failed but the whole thing is scrap!
One more thought..think what the impact of electronics is having on old cars<<how many will be on the road in another thirty years when you can't get the fuel system computer..again designed to not be repairable after a time period..I wonder if there is an in built timer in car computers that makes it slowly adjust the settings if its not serviced by the main dealer and shut down after a time set point...They wouldn't do that..never...how could you prove it when the resin block won't work anymore?
Regards
M. Gregg
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I remember a discussion where Mark from Mark Audio talks about reducing the need for multiple drivers and crossover parts by making good fullrange drivers is part of what he is trying to achieve.
I think it's quite a good example of manufacturers' thinking in that direction.
I also think there can be some interesting movements that may add to the effort such as using wood that renews quickly like bamboo in various builds.
Gideon
I think it's quite a good example of manufacturers' thinking in that direction.
I also think there can be some interesting movements that may add to the effort such as using wood that renews quickly like bamboo in various builds.
Gideon
I have been thinking about equipment failure,
I notice with old age one of the main failures has been electrolytic capacitors,
I am thinking about using tubecaps polypropylene in the psu.
A digital clock I made in 1976 just failed <<it was the PSU electrolytic cap...so it lasted on 24 hrs a day from then until now..put a new cap in and away it went again (working fine)...the semiconductors all still OK and power Tx. However we don't see new equipment lasting<<<why?
The cap I took out was ITT 1000uf 16V...now if new parts are better????
Regards
M. Gregg
I notice with old age one of the main failures has been electrolytic capacitors,
I am thinking about using tubecaps polypropylene in the psu.
A digital clock I made in 1976 just failed <<it was the PSU electrolytic cap...so it lasted on 24 hrs a day from then until now..put a new cap in and away it went again (working fine)...the semiconductors all still OK and power Tx. However we don't see new equipment lasting<<<why?
The cap I took out was ITT 1000uf 16V...now if new parts are better????
Regards
M. Gregg
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Maybe. With the transition of data from physical media to electronic storage it would be interesting to see a study on the savings in trees, chemicals for paper processing, travel eliminated for teleconferencing, etc.. It also touches on a different aspect of audio sustainability: the elimination of vinyl and polycarbonate in favour of electronic distribution and storage.
Hi all,
I have a practical question: I will soon be using some batteries and during an earlier search on the internet I read in a life-cycle analysis that LiFePO4 batteries should have a better sustainability profile than most other (usable) batteries.
Although in short form this is also reflected in this link:
LiFePO4 Batteries
However, I don't know which companies combine a sustainable production with quality & reliable LiFePO4 products - that are also accessible.
Any suggestions here? My guess would be A123Systems but maybe there are others?
Greetings,
Jesper
I have a practical question: I will soon be using some batteries and during an earlier search on the internet I read in a life-cycle analysis that LiFePO4 batteries should have a better sustainability profile than most other (usable) batteries.
Although in short form this is also reflected in this link:
LiFePO4 Batteries
However, I don't know which companies combine a sustainable production with quality & reliable LiFePO4 products - that are also accessible.
Any suggestions here? My guess would be A123Systems but maybe there are others?
Greetings,
Jesper
Sustainability per se is a red herring I think: it's just a question of how long until the 'stuff' runs out (or at least becomes uneconomic). And the way our current economics works, success is deemed to be the policies which use the stuff up as fast as possible.
So as I turn on my power-hungry old PC and for convenience even stream audio that I already own on CD, crank up my inefficient Class AB amps and drive my massive box speakers very loud, I am well aware that I am living in a golden age; tomorrow's audiophiles will listen on headphones to recycled MP3 players while pedalling hard.
So as I turn on my power-hungry old PC and for convenience even stream audio that I already own on CD, crank up my inefficient Class AB amps and drive my massive box speakers very loud, I am well aware that I am living in a golden age; tomorrow's audiophiles will listen on headphones to recycled MP3 players while pedalling hard.
Hi again diy'ers,
As I've mentioned in post #1 I've drawn up this Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) Chart that I suggest is considered/used as a reference when posting in this thread. A bit more info in post #1.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/237696-sustainability-audio.html#post3527251
Greetings,
Jesper
As I've mentioned in post #1 I've drawn up this Life Cycle Analysis (LCA) Chart that I suggest is considered/used as a reference when posting in this thread. A bit more info in post #1.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/237696-sustainability-audio.html#post3527251
Greetings,
Jesper
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