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Old 26th May 2013, 04:33 AM   #81
benb is offline benb  United States
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I'm just now catching up on this fascinating, ground-breaking (sorry...) thread!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I'm getting the MP3s. I'm tempted to get the FLAC but I have too hard a time telling the difference between 'real' and 320k to bother.

I'm also posting here so I remember where I was in the thread - I want to hear these before reading responses, and especially before reading a "spoiler" post telling what's what.

One more thing, there's something missing here - what's the input impedance of the AD you're sending this "signal" into?
Quote:
  • Original from the CD
  • DA/AD loop with normal copper cables (Canare brand)
  • DA/AD loop run thru mud
  • DA/AD loop run thu a potato on the left, a banana on the right
It could be instructive to put a lower resistance at the AD input, to make it more of a resistive divider. Try 10k or 1k - or whatever it takes to make a nominal 3dB drop in signal. This might need a buffer (good headphone amp?) on the AD output to drive the thing.

Some might think this would make it an unfair comparison, but (for a different example) speaker cable has it really bad, a really high current into a really low impedance.

Another thing - if you make more recordings, PLEASE don't tell us which channel is banana and which is potato - I want to see who identifies which is which.
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Old 26th May 2013, 04:40 AM   #82
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Thanks for taking the time to listen. The input impedance of the A/D stage was 20K. There was some attenuation, which was made up for with the input volume control.

The banana had the highest impedance.
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Old 26th May 2013, 05:54 AM   #83
benb is offline benb  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatGuy View Post
Do try steel wool, too. That kind of furry madness ... zillions of pretty good conductors with really terrible ohmic contacts between them. Ought to be instructive. And of course a pencil. You know, the graphite which historically has been called "lead", though it has been 300 years since real lead was in the pencil.
That's a bit of history I didn't know about pencil lead.

As for graphite, that's a form of carbon, and Alexander Graham Bell's first (and only?) microphone design used a diaphragm vibrating against a small container packed with carbon to get a variable resistance. While it's not in such wide used today, it was the highest quality microphone design at the time (okay, it was the ONLY microphone design).
Quote:
And what about a waterhose? Good ... long distance conductor, if filled with saline water. Even has an insulator on the outside, making it almost a coax. Hey... there's the answer to the "spaghetti inside a macaroni" coax idea. Spaghetti inside a hose inside a bucket of water.
There was the East-Coast Vs. West-Coast (USA) sound (first it was speakers, then it was rap music), next will be The Itallian Sound! Opera fans will love it!
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I'm sure you can get a difference in DiffMaker (the flac files should convert easily), the more interesting question is whether or not you can actually hear a difference. After all, if there's night and day audible differences between copper and silver or PVC and Teflon, you'd think that banana/potato vs copper or mud ought to be blatantly evident.
But, but ... I can hear Them now, with Their Pseudo-Scientific Explanations - this test ONLY confirms that there's little if any difference between copper and these other crude substances - but Gold and Silver just HAVE to be Audibly Better!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Thanks for taking the time to listen. The input impedance of the A/D stage was 20K. There was some attenuation, which was made up for with the input volume control.

The banana had the highest impedance.
Aha, an actual value for impedance (I presume the driving output impedance was much lower, low enough to be considered insignificant). That will be helpful when, er, if this experiment is repeated.

I just listened to the MP3s, first at moderate volume (Audiophile 2496 PCI card, old Kenwood amp, Infinity RS-125) and couldn't hear a difference. I switched to my Sony MDR-7506 headphones (not flat, not perfect, but if I am to hear any difference, it would most likely show up through these), cranked it up a good bit, but still heard no difference.

I DID hear the skip in file D at 29 seconds, but I didn't think much of it - I just assumed it was some program running in the background eating up processor cycles. On the other hand, this is a 3GHz quadcore with 8 megs RAM, and I've done a good bit of audio recording and multichannel playback with no glitches while other stuff runs, so I SHOULD have suspected the file.
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Old 26th May 2013, 06:03 AM   #84
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I think I heard the skips the first time I listened as well and put it down to something on my HT box interfering, it wasn't until I put the headphones on my laptop and played the tracks a few times that I noticed it was always track D, and then I payed more attention and saw it was always at the same spots

I'm still rather amazed that I can hear absolutely no difference between the tracks! it would be interesting to synchronize two and swap between them rather than listening to a whole track and then another, that *might* make it easier to spot a difference...

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Old 26th May 2013, 11:55 AM   #85
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I'm looking forward to audiophile 'mud-rolling'.
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Old 26th May 2013, 12:13 PM   #86
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The idea is being picked up by commercial types already!

Pear Cable Audio Cables

Listened to the four clips for a second time, and I found no significant difference. Old ears too.
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Old 26th May 2013, 09:53 PM   #87
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benb View Post
I can hear Them now, with Their Pseudo-Scientific Explanations - this test ONLY confirms that there's little if any difference between copper and these other crude substances - but Gold and Silver just HAVE to be Audibly Better!
Except that I have avoided that, the original file is included! If it's "better" than that, well.... you know.

Quote:
Aha, an actual value for impedance (I presume the driving output impedance was much lower, low enough to be considered insignificant). That will be helpful when, er, if this experiment is repeated.
I tried to measure the DC resistance of the potato and could not. It kept getting higher and higher, like a cap charging up. I found that the potato would charge to about 0.8V and it would hold. Don't know how, both probes were stainless steel, not dissimilar metals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
it would be interesting to synchronize two and swap between them rather than listening to a whole track and then another, that *might* make it easier to spot a difference...
I used the ABX plugin in FOOBAR to do just this. Not much, if any, difference that I can tell. Very surprising.
Sorry about the glitches in D. I could fix that, but want to leave all as is.
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:30 PM   #88
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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BTW, thanks again for taking the time to listen. I was really hoping for more a difference in the sound. I do find it strange that they all sound so similar.

I'll reveal the files in a day or two, once a few more folks have reported in.
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Old 26th May 2013, 11:15 PM   #89
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Hold on please for one day more Pano


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_push_pull View Post
what is a KBK?
diyAudio - View Profile: KBK

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Old 26th May 2013, 11:27 PM   #90
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Well. I'm fooled. If I had to call it, I'd say D was the original, but I strongly suspect that is just me kidding myself.
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