Not so much on this site but I was just wondering why the people who shun virtually all modifications, no matter how simple, that change the sound for the better, will then turn around and place a high value on any equipment change, no matter how simple, that changes the sound for the better.
Is it simply jelousy? Does it irk them that a DIY'r, by changing out the tonearm wire, counterweight etc will improve the sound of a tone arm to the point where it competes with the much more expensive arms that they had to buy to get that same better wire, counterweight etc?
Is it simply a lack of courage? Are they not strong enough in there belief that they can distinguish between "better" sound or just "different" sound when trying reversible modifications?
Is it a lack of skill? Do they not know how to solder or believe it is beneath them?
Is it a lack of knowledge? Is it difficult to find out that often the biggest difference in performance between the low end and upper end of a particular speaker line lies mostly in the quality of the x over components?
Is it about status? When an individual can finally afford a top end product are DIY's to be shut out, and dismissed, simply because they often elevate less expensive equipment to near the same performance level of what the "cost no object" crowd buys?
Just wondering?
Is it simply jelousy? Does it irk them that a DIY'r, by changing out the tonearm wire, counterweight etc will improve the sound of a tone arm to the point where it competes with the much more expensive arms that they had to buy to get that same better wire, counterweight etc?
Is it simply a lack of courage? Are they not strong enough in there belief that they can distinguish between "better" sound or just "different" sound when trying reversible modifications?
Is it a lack of skill? Do they not know how to solder or believe it is beneath them?
Is it a lack of knowledge? Is it difficult to find out that often the biggest difference in performance between the low end and upper end of a particular speaker line lies mostly in the quality of the x over components?
Is it about status? When an individual can finally afford a top end product are DIY's to be shut out, and dismissed, simply because they often elevate less expensive equipment to near the same performance level of what the "cost no object" crowd buys?
Just wondering?
Um, is it necessary to castigate those you disagree with?
A place like this is a forum, not a technical reference service. People post their thoughts. SOme people have serious technical chops, and others have odd notions. OK, so the world has all kinds.
SOme people see themselves as purists. TO some that means accepting products as is, and to others that means changing them in search of the holy grail.
WHy accuse someone of jealosy, defensiveness, cowardice, inexperience, ignorance, vanity? Did I miss any? Let me turn it around, is that what you just accuse people of when they don;t feel as you do?
Just wondering.
A place like this is a forum, not a technical reference service. People post their thoughts. SOme people have serious technical chops, and others have odd notions. OK, so the world has all kinds.
SOme people see themselves as purists. TO some that means accepting products as is, and to others that means changing them in search of the holy grail.
WHy accuse someone of jealosy, defensiveness, cowardice, inexperience, ignorance, vanity? Did I miss any? Let me turn it around, is that what you just accuse people of when they don;t feel as you do?
Just wondering.
I am not disagreeing with anybody. However each of us gets to their version of audio nirvana is fine with me. Also I am not accusing anybody. Please notice the question marks. What I am wondering is why there are people who treat any modification as some sort of abberation yet turn around and applaud people who make all kinds of equipment changes to get their systems to sound best to them.
I am all for each and everyone of us searching out the equipment and the advise to build the most musically enjoyable system for them. However IME there are some who often value your input until you suggest a tweak and suddenly any further input regarding equipment or tweaks is discounted or ignored.
Maybe it is just me!
So I will add the additional question, maybe it is just my perception of how the suggestions are taken? Maybe I am just to sensitive or need to express my thoughts or suggestions better to improve how they are received?
Ultimately I am just trying to figure out what is going on so that the time that I spend on various forums is more productive for all involved.
Thank you for pointing out that I came accross as a bit hostile in my original post. That was not my intention. Probably my frustration coming through a bit to strongly.
I am all for each and everyone of us searching out the equipment and the advise to build the most musically enjoyable system for them. However IME there are some who often value your input until you suggest a tweak and suddenly any further input regarding equipment or tweaks is discounted or ignored.
Maybe it is just me!
So I will add the additional question, maybe it is just my perception of how the suggestions are taken? Maybe I am just to sensitive or need to express my thoughts or suggestions better to improve how they are received?
Ultimately I am just trying to figure out what is going on so that the time that I spend on various forums is more productive for all involved.
Thank you for pointing out that I came accross as a bit hostile in my original post. That was not my intention. Probably my frustration coming through a bit to strongly.
OK, fair enough. In my adult existence I have come to some conclusions of my own. One is that if you ask a few people about export policy or something you get a few vague thoughts. But bring up the topic of how to hang toilet paper on the wall (or any other topic that really has no affect on your life) and people will start weighing in with hard held opinions on one way or the other and advanced rationales for their position. And the further discussion is populated by the phrase "yeah, but..." a lot. Oh, the paper thing... One way is "paper out", meaning the loose end comes over the top and away from the wall. The other is "paper in", meaning the loose end hangs right against the wall. Believe me, that one can go on for days.
So in the grand scheme of things, the way you improve your stereo system has absolutely no effect on my life, and vice versa I am sure. So someone can argue to the death some position and no one can make him wrong. Because ther is no right and wrong.
If your entire premise is paper out, so to speak, then any other systems requiring paper in must therefore be wrong. And the other way back at them. If you define pure as totally stock gear, usually with some rationale like "well those guys are professional engineers, experts, how dare you second guess them.", then it is anathema to discuss mods. On the other hand if you are a tweaker, then you always will find some part of the system that is close but you are sure you can add just that extra added bit of whatever to make it even better. "This Atomic XYZ CD player is pretty good, but Burr Brown JUST came out with a new op amp with a tenth of a microvolt better slew rate and..."
SO I suspect many of us are driven by self-validation, at least to some degree, and that can take the form of needing not only to be "right," but to have others acknowledge that rightness.
I think if you are a tweaker and have some insights to share about upgrading some circuit, it is irrelevant if some of the responses are telling you not to even LOOK inside the thing. Your insights will still be of value to the other tweakers, and not to the stock gear freaks. And if you are the purist who wants his gear stock, telling the other tweakos not to do it won;t stop them.
It is like the elections here in the USA. If you are a die hard Democrat (or Republican), there is little someone can say to make you vote Republican (or Democrat) (Not taking sides there.) Within either party there can be discussions of one choice or another, but across party lines, those hardcore types won;t even look.
Now those hard line amp people are like the political junkies, but that leaves a lot of folks in the middle who are willing to consider either way.
Oddly I am reminded of a personal story the wife and I like to recall. We were visiting in my parents' home and we went to cook ourselves some eggs for breakfast. Mom says "Oh no, let me do it, you are guests. How do you want your eggs?" Both of us said,"OH thanks, I'd like them over hard." And my dear mother proceded to deliver us plates of over easy eggs. I said to her, "Thanks Mom, but we really wanted them over hard, not runny." And Mom replied, "Oh no one likes them THAT way. Just eat." That was 20 years ago, but to this day if we get something we didn;t want somewhere, we look at each other, smile and ask "So, how do you like your eggs?" AT least we two know why it was funny.
Pardon my rambling.
So in the grand scheme of things, the way you improve your stereo system has absolutely no effect on my life, and vice versa I am sure. So someone can argue to the death some position and no one can make him wrong. Because ther is no right and wrong.
If your entire premise is paper out, so to speak, then any other systems requiring paper in must therefore be wrong. And the other way back at them. If you define pure as totally stock gear, usually with some rationale like "well those guys are professional engineers, experts, how dare you second guess them.", then it is anathema to discuss mods. On the other hand if you are a tweaker, then you always will find some part of the system that is close but you are sure you can add just that extra added bit of whatever to make it even better. "This Atomic XYZ CD player is pretty good, but Burr Brown JUST came out with a new op amp with a tenth of a microvolt better slew rate and..."
SO I suspect many of us are driven by self-validation, at least to some degree, and that can take the form of needing not only to be "right," but to have others acknowledge that rightness.
I think if you are a tweaker and have some insights to share about upgrading some circuit, it is irrelevant if some of the responses are telling you not to even LOOK inside the thing. Your insights will still be of value to the other tweakers, and not to the stock gear freaks. And if you are the purist who wants his gear stock, telling the other tweakos not to do it won;t stop them.
It is like the elections here in the USA. If you are a die hard Democrat (or Republican), there is little someone can say to make you vote Republican (or Democrat) (Not taking sides there.) Within either party there can be discussions of one choice or another, but across party lines, those hardcore types won;t even look.
Now those hard line amp people are like the political junkies, but that leaves a lot of folks in the middle who are willing to consider either way.
Oddly I am reminded of a personal story the wife and I like to recall. We were visiting in my parents' home and we went to cook ourselves some eggs for breakfast. Mom says "Oh no, let me do it, you are guests. How do you want your eggs?" Both of us said,"OH thanks, I'd like them over hard." And my dear mother proceded to deliver us plates of over easy eggs. I said to her, "Thanks Mom, but we really wanted them over hard, not runny." And Mom replied, "Oh no one likes them THAT way. Just eat." That was 20 years ago, but to this day if we get something we didn;t want somewhere, we look at each other, smile and ask "So, how do you like your eggs?" AT least we two know why it was funny.
Pardon my rambling.
Hmmm, that seems to be true here. I drive my wife crazy with this (among other things). I had no idea it was gender-linked. I thought the only gender-linked thing was "leave the seat up" versus "leave the seat down."
On the topic..
Is it that some think that a DIYer is not qualified to do "that" kind of work?
Ie a DIYer is bogging..but will then repair their car? or not... considering themselves not qualified..
So you have to ask yourself..how much effect do forums have?...ie how much better is your understanding when using this or other forums..as opposed to just having a go yourself?
Would that knowledge effect how "the other person" thought of your DIY updates?
And how do they perceive updates done by a shop or done at the manufacturers..How would they perceive your mod done by someone else?
Regards
M. Gregg
Is it that some think that a DIYer is not qualified to do "that" kind of work?
Ie a DIYer is bogging..but will then repair their car? or not... considering themselves not qualified..
So you have to ask yourself..how much effect do forums have?...ie how much better is your understanding when using this or other forums..as opposed to just having a go yourself?
Would that knowledge effect how "the other person" thought of your DIY updates?
And how do they perceive updates done by a shop or done at the manufacturers..How would they perceive your mod done by someone else?
Regards
M. Gregg
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Cat owners learn fast that that is *not* a smart option. The rest of you have a choice.
Regarding the topic of the thread, some people like fiddling with stuff and others don't. Of the fiddlers/tweakers, some spend their time modding their cars to get better performance, while others enjoy modding their hifi to get better performance.
Somewhere out there someone is modding his kitchen appliances to get smoother smoothies, more evenly shredded carrots etc.
Does it irk you that a DIYer, by upgrading the bearings, adjusting the blade angles etc can get better smoothies with his cheap Kitchenette doodad, than others do with much more expensive appliances?
Well,
Does it erk you that the other "Guy" has an Ongaku, a porsche/ferrari and doesn't go to work...
..has lots of holidays and is married to a model..
Where you can modify your car to be as fast and HIFI as good..but its not an Ongaku and its not a Ferrari and perhaps you have to go to work...
You know more than the other "Guy" (maybe)..
Regards
M. Gregg
Does it erk you that the other "Guy" has an Ongaku, a porsche/ferrari and doesn't go to work...
..has lots of holidays and is married to a model..Where you can modify your car to be as fast and HIFI as good..but its not an Ongaku and its not a Ferrari and perhaps you have to go to work...
You know more than the other "Guy" (maybe)..
Regards
M. Gregg
It's got nothing to do with jealousy or any of these other negative emotions you quote.
Every time you change something you have to decide whether it's an improvement or not.
I don't 'tweak' things because I don't know of any economic way to evaluate the changes.
I don't have access to test facilities that reliably permit me to do that.
I'm realistic enough know that a sighted 'listening' test only opens the door to self-deception.
I never buy equipment on the basis of listening. I make my choices based on specification, price and independent review with an evaluation of ergonomics thrown in. Same as a washing machine, fridge or any other white goods.
I'm in the fortunate position of being able to design and build virtually any piece of audio equipment imaginable, so I don't have to get my kicks from tweaking, and you'll probably find that the more generally competent correspondents are the less tweaking they do.
Sound Quality is a vastly overrated criterion. It's pursuit is passé. Anyone can hear reference - quality sound for the cost of a Sansa Clip+ and a pair of Klipsch Image S4 IEMS.
Thanks Enzo, I can relate to someone being in the "paper out" or "paper in" crowd. I did not boil it down to the fact taht some people have a side that they support and confer with and do not wish to be open to anything from the other side.
I guess I did not make the connection because to me there is no difference between changing out a piece of equipment to improve the sound versus changing out the feet that of that same piece of equipment.
I guess I did not make the connection because to me there is no difference between changing out a piece of equipment to improve the sound versus changing out the feet that of that same piece of equipment.
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