Hi John,
Justin and I did the show with my cables Friday night, and we will do the same next Friday night.
Justin had some other band to engineer Saturday night, but without my leads or me and he was not looking forward to it after what we achieved Friday night - I have not spoken to him about his Saturday night show yet.
The Friday night band are friends of mine and are especially good, and every sound guy enjoys to engineer them.
We have a settings problem with the system to iron out before next week and then we will be able to go for broke - after the show we worked out that the electronic crossover box was set to limit the mids 6dB before the highs or lows.
During the show we had a HUGE, CLEAN and DYNAMIC sound that we could have run rather harder (louder and even bigger) except that vocals/mids went into limiting and reduced in aparent level thus changing overall sound balance when increasing the master FOH faders too far.
We did things like pull other midrange sources down in the mix to allow more room for the vocals, and this worked well enough for the night, but next week we will have this limitation removed and then we can have even more fun.
Previous experiments have produced really nicely cleanly musical results that allow systems to go to sustained extreme levels and very interestingly without causing ear fatigue or ringing, and more than one listener has commented on this.
I am looking forward to next Friday night.
Eric.
These guys can really belt out a tune.
Justin and I did the show with my cables Friday night, and we will do the same next Friday night.
Justin had some other band to engineer Saturday night, but without my leads or me and he was not looking forward to it after what we achieved Friday night - I have not spoken to him about his Saturday night show yet.
The Friday night band are friends of mine and are especially good, and every sound guy enjoys to engineer them.
We have a settings problem with the system to iron out before next week and then we will be able to go for broke - after the show we worked out that the electronic crossover box was set to limit the mids 6dB before the highs or lows.
During the show we had a HUGE, CLEAN and DYNAMIC sound that we could have run rather harder (louder and even bigger) except that vocals/mids went into limiting and reduced in aparent level thus changing overall sound balance when increasing the master FOH faders too far.
We did things like pull other midrange sources down in the mix to allow more room for the vocals, and this worked well enough for the night, but next week we will have this limitation removed and then we can have even more fun.
Previous experiments have produced really nicely cleanly musical results that allow systems to go to sustained extreme levels and very interestingly without causing ear fatigue or ringing, and more than one listener has commented on this.
I am looking forward to next Friday night.
Eric.
These guys can really belt out a tune.
Attachments
hehe, naughty naughty!
Maybe you could fly over here and get rid of the ear fatigue and ringing from my system... Cutting a hole in the midrange only half fixes it, heh. (last trick tried!)
Anyway, back to the old topic. You're saying that these incredible improvements are due solely to these Byebee type devices you have knocked up?
-Simon
Hi Eric,
I had been of the mindset that recording engineers were involved in the tough job of capturing a performance and converting sound to eletricity. I forgot about the everyday work people like you are involved with creating a live performance to begin with. You have to keep the crowd happy, the house manager happy, and the band happy. And every one tends to like it loud. No easy feat (but I don't need to tell you that). Great to hear about a great performance. There is no audio like a live music. Keep at it.
JF
I had been of the mindset that recording engineers were involved in the tough job of capturing a performance and converting sound to eletricity. I forgot about the everyday work people like you are involved with creating a live performance to begin with. You have to keep the crowd happy, the house manager happy, and the band happy. And every one tends to like it loud. No easy feat (but I don't need to tell you that). Great to hear about a great performance. There is no audio like a live music. Keep at it.
JF
I think it is important to have him remind us all that you guys aren't necessarily right - otherwise we are on the way to putting our photos in the freezer.. There is no doubt that audiophiles DO fall for stuff that is worthless, all people that are more open minded (or closed minded depending on your view!) are the first to fall for BS .
You COULD just ignore him, and continue your discussion around him easily, but some of you have huge, desperate egos and have to argue every point. Perhaps you guys could consider maturing a bit while the thread is away.
If you guys had children, you certainly wouldn't let them act in such a matter...
DIY Soundmix.........
If the band is good the rest is a whole lot easier.
Getting foldback good makes the band happy and this translates into their performance which makes the audience happy.
A happy audience drinks more and this makes the manager happy.
Good system sound and system dynamics keep us sound guys happy - we are mixing the sound for ourselves don't forget.
If the sound is good then it gets even better when louder up to a sensible limit of course.
Good sound and loud are often mutually exclusive, and some bad engineers don't understand this and just crank it regardless.
Justin and I insist on hifi sound without harshness and this is what we are achieving and quite spectacularly.
I lost count of how many signed CD copies the band sold the other night - always a good indicator of crowd enjoyment.
Also there were rousing cheers, clapping and whistles from the crowd after every song.
Next week will be even more fun.
Eric.
If the band is good the rest is a whole lot easier.
Getting foldback good makes the band happy and this translates into their performance which makes the audience happy.
A happy audience drinks more and this makes the manager happy.
Good system sound and system dynamics keep us sound guys happy - we are mixing the sound for ourselves don't forget.
If the sound is good then it gets even better when louder up to a sensible limit of course.
Good sound and loud are often mutually exclusive, and some bad engineers don't understand this and just crank it regardless.
Justin and I insist on hifi sound without harshness and this is what we are achieving and quite spectacularly.
I lost count of how many signed CD copies the band sold the other night - always a good indicator of crowd enjoyment.
Also there were rousing cheers, clapping and whistles from the crowd after every song.
Next week will be even more fun.
Eric.
Construction And Destruction.........
The problem is that there are observations that we KNOW we are right about and SE keeps intruding and running threads off track and effectively destroying them.
If he were to butt out sometimes these threads would develop in a fruitful way and much useful information could be fleshed out and shared.
I am frankly sick to ****ing death of hearing about stupid photographs in bloody freezers, and idiotic argument based on this kind of crap, and his consistent belief that everybody else on the planet is imagining things that they are hearing.
I read an interesting article about 'negative mood disorder' that describes SE's social interactions very closely, and further shows that those in a negative outlook are unable when in this condition to assimilate information correctly.
The likes of Frank and JC and myself are far too experienced to allow ourselves to be deluded by apearances or marketing, and use our ears as the only arbiter.
SE is by his attitude precluding himself from this simple skill.
Eric.
The problem is that there are observations that we KNOW we are right about and SE keeps intruding and running threads off track and effectively destroying them.
If he were to butt out sometimes these threads would develop in a fruitful way and much useful information could be fleshed out and shared.
I am frankly sick to ****ing death of hearing about stupid photographs in bloody freezers, and idiotic argument based on this kind of crap, and his consistent belief that everybody else on the planet is imagining things that they are hearing.
I read an interesting article about 'negative mood disorder' that describes SE's social interactions very closely, and further shows that those in a negative outlook are unable when in this condition to assimilate information correctly.
The likes of Frank and JC and myself are far too experienced to allow ourselves to be deluded by apearances or marketing, and use our ears as the only arbiter.
SE is by his attitude precluding himself from this simple skill.
Eric.
Wow, I think a friend of mine has that, except to be fair, its usually after 10 pints of lager it kicks in... It seems the only voice he can hear is his own, and the only argument he understands is his own! We once had an argument about plug blocks, and potential fire risks, this was in the 1st year of university. We actually fell out over it and someone physically removed him from the room. lol. His argument was based on reading one article in one magazine. Where did that get him?!?
Actually, I don't know what I'm saying here, guess I thought it would be funny...
-Simon
The photos in the freezer are used as an example that everyone can agree on as going too far. It requires you to admit that there is such a thing as going too far. That provides one limit, the people claiming that every amp sounds the same are the other limit. In between there is stuff that is real and stuff that is imaginary. There is no doubt in my mind that you are fooling yourself on some things and are absolutely correct on others.
Until you can admit that you are fooling yourself on some things, then you are fooling yourself absolutely. When you are dealing with something as subtle as some of these things are, you are going to make mistakes...
He only runs the thread off track because people like Frank take the bait and start arguing the point. In fact he is doing a slight service if he posts in each thread and reminds people some of this has to be taken sceptically. At least he doesn't post tons of photos like Fred does when he tries to ruin a thread....
What you want is a closed system of believers. A cult. Then you can take an idea to any extreme and nobody will disagree with you. Blood sacrifices improve high response? oh yes , absolutely.
Until you can admit that you are fooling yourself on some things, then you are fooling yourself absolutely. When you are dealing with something as subtle as some of these things are, you are going to make mistakes...
He only runs the thread off track because people like Frank take the bait and start arguing the point. In fact he is doing a slight service if he posts in each thread and reminds people some of this has to be taken sceptically. At least he doesn't post tons of photos like Fred does when he tries to ruin a thread....
What you want is a closed system of believers. A cult. Then you can take an idea to any extreme and nobody will disagree with you. Blood sacrifices improve high response? oh yes , absolutely.
Re: Construction And Destruction.........
The problem is rather that it is impossible to have a frutful discussion
when people like you make such ignorant claims. And don't
give me that crap again about this being beyond my
epxerience. The fault with your argumentation has nothing
to do with the particular topic disussed, in this case audio.
It would be just as ignorant (I could add other less polite
invectives, but I see no point in being inpolite) if you were
discussing french wines, tropical fishes or whatever. The
problem is not with some of us lacking you listening experiences
and skills, but with with your ignorance of certain elementary
logic, psychology and philosophy of science.
Maybe it is actually just a matter of semantics, and you
dont really mean "we know" but rather " we are convinced",
but then why not write that so we can avoid these endless and
pointless discussions and so you don't throw away all your
credibility, or whatever remains of it? There are many others
who can and do report subjective findings in a humble and
polite way as just that, their own subjective findings and leave
it up to others to make what they want of it. I don't know if
this is the case with you, but an insistence on trying to impose
ones owns beliefs as facts upon others very often signals that
the person in question is actually rather not very convinced at
all and has to try convincing others comfort him-/herself.
Let's take an analogy.
some people "know" for a fact that there is no god.
Others "know" for a fact that there is a single god which is the
Christian god. Yet others "know" for a fact that there is a single
god called Allah, a few of which are even prepared to blow up scyscrapers and kill thousands of people because they are so
convinced of this "fact", Yet other "know " that there are
many gods called Krisha, Shiva etc. Yet others .... The problem
is that none of these people can prove to the others that what they "know" is the one correct answer. I am very confident that
the very large majority of people are content with treating their
religious opinions as personal beliefs, possibly convincing to
themselves, but not trying to claim these beliefs to be a universal
truth. Disclaimer: This last paragraph is not meant as disrespect
to any religion or any particular individuals religious beliefs, but
is only meant as an analogy to show how unreasonable it is
to mix up beliefs with knowledge. If various peoples knowledge
are inconsistent, then there is no knowledge at all, until we can
somehow ascertain one these different knowledges as the single
true one.
I have said it before, and I repeat it again. I have absolutely
nothing against people reporting their subjective findings, to
the contraty, I welcome it, as long as it is done in an honest,
polite and humble way. Even though I remain sceptical towards
many claims of audibility, I do not dismiss them entirely except
for the most extreme ones, like the photos in the freezer.
mrfeedback said:
The problem is rather that it is impossible to have a frutful discussion
when people like you make such ignorant claims. And don't
give me that crap again about this being beyond my
epxerience. The fault with your argumentation has nothing
to do with the particular topic disussed, in this case audio.
It would be just as ignorant (I could add other less polite
invectives, but I see no point in being inpolite) if you were
discussing french wines, tropical fishes or whatever. The
problem is not with some of us lacking you listening experiences
and skills, but with with your ignorance of certain elementary
logic, psychology and philosophy of science.
Maybe it is actually just a matter of semantics, and you
dont really mean "we know" but rather " we are convinced",
but then why not write that so we can avoid these endless and
pointless discussions and so you don't throw away all your
credibility, or whatever remains of it? There are many others
who can and do report subjective findings in a humble and
polite way as just that, their own subjective findings and leave
it up to others to make what they want of it. I don't know if
this is the case with you, but an insistence on trying to impose
ones owns beliefs as facts upon others very often signals that
the person in question is actually rather not very convinced at
all and has to try convincing others comfort him-/herself.
Let's take an analogy.
some people "know" for a fact that there is no god.
Others "know" for a fact that there is a single god which is the
Christian god. Yet others "know" for a fact that there is a single
god called Allah, a few of which are even prepared to blow up scyscrapers and kill thousands of people because they are so
convinced of this "fact", Yet other "know " that there are
many gods called Krisha, Shiva etc. Yet others .... The problem
is that none of these people can prove to the others that what they "know" is the one correct answer. I am very confident that
the very large majority of people are content with treating their
religious opinions as personal beliefs, possibly convincing to
themselves, but not trying to claim these beliefs to be a universal
truth. Disclaimer: This last paragraph is not meant as disrespect
to any religion or any particular individuals religious beliefs, but
is only meant as an analogy to show how unreasonable it is
to mix up beliefs with knowledge. If various peoples knowledge
are inconsistent, then there is no knowledge at all, until we can
somehow ascertain one these different knowledges as the single
true one.
I have said it before, and I repeat it again. I have absolutely
nothing against people reporting their subjective findings, to
the contraty, I welcome it, as long as it is done in an honest,
polite and humble way. Even though I remain sceptical towards
many claims of audibility, I do not dismiss them entirely except
for the most extreme ones, like the photos in the freezer.
English To Swedish Language Barrier ?.........
You have repeatedly missed bits like "I reckon, or I believe, or I have found" etc as cues that I am talking about subjectives.
I thought that this is about as humble as possible.
Don't even try to make me believe that 3 band members, 2 sound guys and my girlfriend were all self deluded on Friday night.
Add to that the 5 people who came up to the console and strongly complimented the cleanness, clarity and niceness of the sound.
Oh, and don't forget the audience who were the blind-test subjects who were very clearly showing their happiness at the whole performance.
Oh, and the blind-test bar manager who just came up and straight out said "That was the best sound that I have ever heard in this room, great guys, just great, thanks."
All that with a few leads patched into a big system, and some of you trying to tell me that cables etc can make no differences to a system - wake up and start listening properly.
Eric.
You have repeatedly missed bits like "I reckon, or I believe, or I have found" etc as cues that I am talking about subjectives.
I thought that this is about as humble as possible.
Don't even try to make me believe that 3 band members, 2 sound guys and my girlfriend were all self deluded on Friday night.
Add to that the 5 people who came up to the console and strongly complimented the cleanness, clarity and niceness of the sound.
Oh, and don't forget the audience who were the blind-test subjects who were very clearly showing their happiness at the whole performance.
Oh, and the blind-test bar manager who just came up and straight out said "That was the best sound that I have ever heard in this room, great guys, just great, thanks."
All that with a few leads patched into a big system, and some of you trying to tell me that cables etc can make no differences to a system - wake up and start listening properly.
Eric.
JOE DIRT® said:
Everything Eric has written, or something specific (i.e. the directionality of wire, the type of wire, Bybees, soldering techniques, or ???)?
Eric's idea of creating a directionless wire is intriguing and easy to do (if nothing else two parallel wires cuts the resistance in half). I just wonder if that is the central concept.
JF
Your "evidence" is a bar full of patrons??? Spent enough time in a bar to know the ladies always look better at closing time, and the music always sounds better with a few beers....Get real.
And, I would say that SE is one of the few posters presenting a logical, scientifically based argument. We need a BS meter; I for one appreciate the efforts he makes to debunk the illogical, unscientific, and groundless claims made by oh too many charlatans.
I have read enough of his posts to understand that he isn't about to argue about subjective perceptions; if you think that Bybees sound great, then good for you. And if you don't have the education or knowledge to argue the science, then get out of the way....
And, I would say that SE is one of the few posters presenting a logical, scientifically based argument. We need a BS meter; I for one appreciate the efforts he makes to debunk the illogical, unscientific, and groundless claims made by oh too many charlatans.
I have read enough of his posts to understand that he isn't about to argue about subjective perceptions; if you think that Bybees sound great, then good for you. And if you don't have the education or knowledge to argue the science, then get out of the way....
kuribo said:
Eric's work probably keeps him busy. Being within a room of people that like what they hear is how he experiences proof of his efforts. It's proof to him. Nothing wrong with that. In lieu of most of us not presenting any proof for anything else, I appreciate his sharing his experience. I don't read that he expects us to accept it as proof. Steve is asking for proof (from any of the can-hear-a-difference crowd). As I read his posts, in lieu of any other "evidence", Eric is simply sharing his experiences. Give him some credit (he is not getting much help from others).
And I think it's an overgeneralization to say that people are there only for beer and sex (though that certainly is an aspect of such a venue, or any venue actually). Most people have some level of an appreciation for music and have ways to communicate if they like what they hear, or not. If you were there, could you not appreciate the music (because of the beer and opposite sex)? Of course, Eric's posts are not proof for me of how well the patch cords worked, though maybe it's a starting point. I haven't ruled out that I might learn something here.
JF
My point had nothing to do with what people were there for, but that a room full of people drinking alcohol, a substance well known for altering perception (eg, the girls look better at closing time), is not exactly the sort of testimonial I would put much faith in. I imagine we have all done things, thought things, saw things, heard things, under the influence of alcohol, in a bar environment, that we wake up to the next day and can't believe...My point is, it is simply not the kind of environment from which one can draw any sort of reliable conclusions, other than people enjoyed the music. Which they may have regardless...
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