These are the measurements of a $144k per pair (so $72k per amplifier)
darTZeel NHB-458 monoblock amplifier | Stereophile.com
darTZeel NHB-458 monoblock amplifier | Stereophile.com
With that amount of money, it is not difficult to make a good sounding amp nowadays. The important thing is marketing. And it is important for marketing purpose to "hand tune" the amp to get at least 5 zeros THD at full power level, even if it has nothing to do with good sound
A good sounding amp is not easy to make at any price, but several folks, many contributors to these forums, can do very well for one tenth the price and for one hundredth the price, well enough that there is no speaker made that can take advantage of the difference. Well enough there is no source material that can take advantage of the difference. Just what we need, a $144K amp when the recording studio is using 49 cent op-amps.
Using the best batch of the best transistors do matters. For high end amps, no one can get away with only one pair. We need matched pairs. I don't believe a good amp can be made without voicing. So build 100 circuits (one employee can be assigned one circuit), listen (invite a group of audiophiles with golden ears ) and choose the best one. Accurate measurement tools are expensive, even the technology is not advanced enough, there is room for designing own measurement tools (e.g. device that "measures" current instead of voltage). Etc etc.
) and choose the best one. Accurate measurement tools are expensive, even the technology is not advanced enough, there is room for designing own measurement tools (e.g. device that "measures" current instead of voltage). Etc etc.
Jay,
I really hope you don't believe what you just wrote in #8. You were closer to being correct in #6 that it is all about marketing. Post #3 has much truth in it.
"voicing"? If in needs to be "voiced," then the quality control is so terrible they need to find a new manufacturer.
We have been able to measure current for several hundred years. Measurement to five zeros is no longer the domain of advanced standards labs. It has not been for 20 years or more. People who understand the measurements are still as rare as ever. People who believe a single value measurement has any relevance to sonic quality are still all too common. A published THD of .00005 is completely meaningless and even a Blameless can do it. As my speaker has a crossover in it, which includes a cap and a inductor; so it also tells me whoever published such a number knows nothing about music systems. Whoever buys based on such non-sense knows even less. "Hand tuning?" Yea, set the bias.
Don't get me wrong, these may be very nice amps. They could be quite costly to make. Big transformers, big heat sinks, lots of matched transistors. I am only attacking the esoteric high end hype you are repeating, not the product.
Yes, I have several not very cheap amps. Yes, I can here a difference, but best to worst is no where near as important as the difference between a $40 and $80 tweeter. (Those $4000 speakers you may have, probably have a $20 tweeter in them. Dirty little secret)
Of course any half-decent conventional amp needs matched pairs of outputs, and throughout the amp for that matter. No surprise there. Even my baby Rotels have two pairs of matched outputs and they represent just well done mid-fi.
I really hope you don't believe what you just wrote in #8. You were closer to being correct in #6 that it is all about marketing. Post #3 has much truth in it.
"voicing"? If in needs to be "voiced," then the quality control is so terrible they need to find a new manufacturer.
We have been able to measure current for several hundred years. Measurement to five zeros is no longer the domain of advanced standards labs. It has not been for 20 years or more. People who understand the measurements are still as rare as ever. People who believe a single value measurement has any relevance to sonic quality are still all too common. A published THD of .00005 is completely meaningless and even a Blameless can do it. As my speaker has a crossover in it, which includes a cap and a inductor; so it also tells me whoever published such a number knows nothing about music systems. Whoever buys based on such non-sense knows even less. "Hand tuning?" Yea, set the bias.
Don't get me wrong, these may be very nice amps. They could be quite costly to make. Big transformers, big heat sinks, lots of matched transistors. I am only attacking the esoteric high end hype you are repeating, not the product.
Yes, I have several not very cheap amps. Yes, I can here a difference, but best to worst is no where near as important as the difference between a $40 and $80 tweeter. (Those $4000 speakers you may have, probably have a $20 tweeter in them. Dirty little secret)
Of course any half-decent conventional amp needs matched pairs of outputs, and throughout the amp for that matter. No surprise there. Even my baby Rotels have two pairs of matched outputs and they represent just well done mid-fi.
I think, iirc, the circuit is not particularly low distortion on measurements... iirc the discussion elsewhere is that the circuit produces very little higher order harmonics... it probably sounds really good. And if it produces high current then it will drive the pants off very difficult loads...
Price?
Dunno, but I'd like to sell some stuff at this price point.
Price?
Dunno, but I'd like to sell some stuff at this price point.
It produces less higher order crud then it does low order, but the absolute level of the high order stuff is still high, certainly when compared with the highyly priced but well designed good stuff from MBL/MF etc.
As I said in another thread, it's a reasonably powerful, but poorly performing amplifier shoved inside a glorified PC case. Just what the audiophool crowd like and that it costs a fortune, this almost guarantees that it will be highly praised by subjective reviewers.
I know that large heatsinks, matched transistors, large filter caps and large transformers can cost a decent amount, but nothing about that amplifier justifies it's insane price tag. Much the same as nothing technical really justifies the price of a Rolex, except for the fact that it's a Rolex and it cost a lot...
LOL, voicing, its electronics and physics, its engineering design, not desining a musical intrument. I find these claims from "hi end" audio rather absurd. The whole point is repreduction of sounds, with as much fidelity as possible, voicing iplies this is not being done, and any one involvedin the commercial design of products should be able to measure there designs. Thismyth about desining by ears alone is rather silly, but caters tos mooth the soul who is being fleaced of a few grand, and adds tothe mystism that sourounds some aspects of audio design.
I can show you simulated performance of 5 high-end amplifiers, and I believe you will have a hard time to find out which one that will have more possibility for success in the market. I don't believe you will pick the lowest THD, or the lowest TIM, or even the widest bandwidth, or whatever decision based on numbers. And if it were so, what does that tell us? Can you tell that you know more than others?
If you want to sell high end amps to such a niche market, at least you have to do some research to understand the trend, tendency or even "taste" of your target market. You may also need to understand what speakers they are using. It is not uncommon to match (hence to voice) an amp to a certain high-end speaker.
To do most of this you need ears. Because if you think all amps sound the same, you're in a dead end. May be enclosing blameless amp in a gold enclosure will work for you. But it wont be a success.
We'll have to agree to disagree, I belive in hi-fidelity, ie the system should repreduce the music source with as little colouration as possible, warts and all (ie bad recordings).
As to the term voice it means you are creating a paticular sound, that is not true hi-fi realy, now matching a amp to a speaker is a term I could understand being used, but never voice, while it may be a good mareting term for high end audio it implys adding distortaions from the origional signal to give an ampits signature sound. But then I'mnever gonna spendthat sort of dosh on a pair of amps...and my ears are no good cos I cant differentiate different interconnects etc
As to the term voice it means you are creating a paticular sound, that is not true hi-fi realy, now matching a amp to a speaker is a term I could understand being used, but never voice, while it may be a good mareting term for high end audio it implys adding distortaions from the origional signal to give an ampits signature sound. But then I'mnever gonna spendthat sort of dosh on a pair of amps...and my ears are no good cos I cant differentiate different interconnects etc
oh, I almost misread what you wrote and read it like not designed to please but to sense
I also believe in high fidelity. Except that I don't think that lower THD means higher fidelity.
No, voicing is not adding 2nd order distortion. It is just to test the resultant performance of a system by ears, as there is no rule like Hi-Fi=(0.4/THD) + (0.1/IMD) + (DF/15) + ... eww... don't you know that there are many criteria for a good amp that is not in those common parameters??
and my ears are no good cos I cant differentiate different interconnects etc
Buy the cheapest 2m interconnect, compare with a 0.25m one.
The distortion graph looks like a high feedback amplifier with open loop emitter follower output stage. There is crossover distortion or maybe gm doubling, but low order harmonics. The output impedance is quite high too.
I like the way that power has to be off before touching a cable, the reviewer blew one amplifier.
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