Circuits: Commercial arrangements - Page 3 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > General Interest > Everything Else

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th October 2012, 02:40 PM   #21
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
There probably are cases on this issue involving electronic design which don't involve patentable design. There must be someone who got into hot water or was challenged for using someone's circuit for commercial gain.

I think here is might be one:

Kilburn & Strode LLP - K&S News
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012, 03:18 PM   #22
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Well, I just wrote to a place who should provide a definitive answer. Experts in IP etc.

I said this:

"Imagine that one studies audio engineering and with that knowledge one engages in circuit design and eventually a circuit of one's own making is produced. Let's assume that it is a clever design, containing clever circuit arrangements here and there and is overall a unique circuit arrangement. Also assume there is nothing about the design that could be considered patentable, or no patent is taken out.

Is there anything in law that would prevent anyone besides the circuit designer, freely and without breach of law, using the circuit in a commercial product?

I do not think there is any copyright or design right law that would prevent another using the circuit. But, I'm not an expert.

Thank you. "

I should receive a definitve answer this Monday. I guess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012, 03:39 PM   #23
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard8976 View Post
Also assume there is nothing about the design that could be considered patentable, or no patent is taken out.
As I understand it, in the UK at least, if you don't patent or publish your design, it is possible for someone else, later, to invent it independently and patent it. You are then in breach of their patent, which is an interesting idea.

This article doesn't say exactly that, but I think it implies it:

Quote:
Generally, the first person to conceive an invention and reduce it to practice has the right to patent the invention. However, this right can be lost if the invention is abandoned, suppressed, or concealed. A major purpose of the patent system is to encourage people not only to make useful inventions but also to disclose them to the general public so that the public can benefit from the technology.
The Webb Law Firm
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012, 05:17 PM   #24
DF96 is offline DF96  England
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Yes, to stop someone else you need to publish your design. A patent might still be issued, as patent offices don't do very good searches, but your prior art should render it useless.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012, 09:06 PM   #25
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancs
Prior art, will cover any future patents on an idea you come up. The best way is a sealed registerd letter to solicitor with a promiment date, or publish your work in a journal or similar publication.

FACT: some facts about copyright theft.
FACT | The Federation Against Copyright Theft
commercial firms will either have their own or employ layers, if for no other reason than to draw up NDA's.
ALL drawings, 3D models PCB designs and related electronic data I work on is copyrighted usualy with a statement similar to the following:
(C) Company name Ltd. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. THIS IS AN UNPUBLISHED WORK CREATED ON THE DATE(S) SHOWN
usually with a paragraph:
THIS DOCUMENT IS A DESIGN DOCUMENT FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE COPYRIGHT, DESIGNS AND PATENTS ACT 1988.
Then if you are going to sell a product commercialy, we get into the realm of certification, CE for Europe, UL/FCC USA etc etc and tahts after you have developed the product...
Development, the electronics, software (if required) PCB design, Mechanical design, testing, qualification (EMC etc),prototypes, pre-producrion parts, part manufacture, procurment, assembly, packaging, distribution, marketing, advertising, getting distributers on board or finding sales outlets etc etc
Have fun
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012, 10:09 PM   #26
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Kilburn & Strode LLP - K&S News

Points:

* Behringer examined a piece of electrical equipment made by Mackie Designs Inc and obtained knowledge of the connections. That amounts to Behringer figuring out the circuit diagram.

* Behringer then produced circuit boards. Which amounts to Behringer taking advantage of the electronic design inherent in the circuit diagram that Mackie Designs Inc would have created.

* A circuit diagram is a Design Document.

* Mackie Designs Inc tried to claim infringement of copyright regarding a Design Document, by Behringer for the article (circuit boards) that it (Behringer) had made.

* That action failed: "It is not an infringement of any copyright in a Design Document …. to make an article to the design or to copy an article made to the design".

* There was another issue of Design Right. (Design Right protects the shape of a three dimensional design). "The judge then proceeded to consider whether there had been any infringement of the Design Right in the circuit diagrams, for which an infringing act is defined as ‘making an article according to the design’. He concluded that since the Plaintiff’s circuit board had the circuit designs shown in the circuit diagrams, the Defendants had indeed made an article made according to the design."

* It seems here then in principle by making the circuit boards Behringer had breached a Design Right.

* But, Mackie Designs Inc lost on that argument because the plaintiff was a US resident, and therefore did not meet the residence requirements.

* Of course a circuit diagram is not a three dimensional design, but both Mackie Designs Inc circuit boards and Behringer's circuit boards were considered to have been made according to the design, that is, the circuit diagram.

My understanding of that case.

Last edited by richard8976; 27th October 2012 at 10:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2012, 09:54 AM   #27
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancs
Reverse engineering a competitors product is pretty much standard practice in the commercial world...plagiarism is quite common, if you get caught it time for the lawyers.
Why such a fasination wiuth copyright and copying circuits, if you want to design a product - there are numerous open source designs that you could use for starters.
As I alluded to in the last paragraph of my previous post, there are many more hurdles to designing, qualifying and producing a product to worry about.
Financing the project would be the first hurdle, then employing designers, that dosn't come cheap, Mechanical and PCB design can be between £30-£50 per hour per person, say two weeks for the initial PCB and a month for the mechanicals (and that is being very very very optimistic) nearly £7000 at the lower rate.
Electronics engineers, especially good analogue ones cost even more (the number of analogue engineers is decreasing every year) so factor in 40-60+ per hour.
Productionising the product, sourcing components etc etc etc
Myself I would not be so concerned about copyright unless I was going to copy someones design (which I wouldn't) but with all the other hassle that comes with the creation of a product, such as the stress it causes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2012, 10:58 AM   #28
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
My concern is not simply about whether a circuit diagram is copyright, or protected by Design Right, it's also about whether manufacturers do, in practice, grant permission to copy the circuit, or grant a licence of use. Or, whether manufacturers seek copyright permission or a licence.

I think as to copyright, there is no copyright in a circuit diagram. My understanding from Mackie V Behringer.

Last edited by richard8976; 28th October 2012 at 11:00 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2012, 11:01 AM   #29
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard8976 View Post
My concern is not simply about whether a circuit diagram is copyright, or protected by Design Right, it's also about whether manufacturers do, in practice, grant permission to copy the circuit, or grant a licence of use. Or, whether manufacturers seek copyright permission or a licence.

I think as to copyright, there is no copyright in a circuit diagram. My understanding from Mackie V Behringer.
Are you intending to be the licensee or the licensor?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2012, 11:15 AM   #30
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
Must you examine each one to ensure you don't infringe it?
Generally, yes. But your quote was from the spec, not the claims and the claims are what counts. With some practice, you can get pretty fast at reading claims, first seeing if any of the independent claims are a problem, then drilling down to the dependent ones only if necessary. Patent landscaping is a learned art.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
85 powersupply circuits 58 charge circuits gev Power Supplies 0 31st July 2005 11:27 AM
TDA1541A/S1 Arrangements rah Digital Source 227 8th February 2005 08:15 AM
bias arrangements for P-P amps. resident Tubes / Valves 50 27th January 2005 08:49 PM
Grounding arrangements with extra PSU? Nuuk Chip Amps 27 14th July 2003 08:59 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:18 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2