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Old 8th November 2012, 07:20 AM   #51
freax is offline freax  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counter culture View Post
Yes, and recorded music is very bad for the ears. You can go deaf from listening to MP3s, even at low volume. Most of the young people I know are deaf already, if the stuff they listen to is anything to judge by.
Thats actually quite true, the MP3 codec leaves quite a few high frequency artifacts around ready and waiting to pop/damage our kids ears.

Dunno why OGG wasn't more popular, love that codec for when compression is required, like for example audio streaming, it leaves far more of the original signal intact compared to MP3 which rips everything apart.

Especially when in VBR.

PWM to me is just like that, I can't stand it, it might be faster than I can see but I can still feel the damn thing pulsing away at my eye's nerve endings, which nobody seems to care about.

If PWM is going to be the future for dimming LED's and such I'm going to have to stockpile more incandescent globes, leave me out of it!!!!
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Last edited by freax; 8th November 2012 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 08:44 AM   #52
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To me this all points out that different lighting technologies excel in different uses.
I remember reading long ago about the lamps for broadcast antennae, but I probably couldn't recall it until I started climbing.
I was reading up on incandescent lamp construction (and destruction) after seeing some posts here. I don't think I've ever heard this before (!):
Quote:
Study of the problem of bulb blackening led to the discovery of the Edison effect, thermionic emission and invention of the vacuum tube.
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:06 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freax View Post
PWM to me is just like that, I can't stand it, it might be faster than I can see but I can still feel the damn thing pulsing away at my eye's nerve endings, which nobody seems to care about.

If PWM is going to be the future for dimming LED's and such I'm going to have to stockpile more incandescent globes, leave me out of it!!!!
+1

I choose not to dim, but to increase or decrease number of light sources, with LED you can still sprinkle them evenly around the room and have just 1/2 or 1/3 of them on, just use several power supplies to alternating chains of LED on a double or triple switch.
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Old 8th November 2012, 10:01 AM   #54
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Originally Posted by jitter View Post
................ that packages clearly show some relevant data, such as lumen output, .........................The misuse of equivelent incandescent wattage
your example shows an equivalence of 5times the light for both sizes of bulbs (8W to 40W & 12W to 60W) My older and probably cheaper end of the market showed much worse than 5times
Quote:
CFL to be +200%,
Maybe I should buy a couple of good quality current production CFLs and compare to incandescent to see if +400% (5times) really does happen in practice.
But instead I have a grant to buy any energy saving device and I'm going to invest in LED replacement bulbs to gain experience in what is available and how they perform in domestic situation. The 10off LED replacement bulbs, I have at present, all do a good job: background room light in table lamps, reading lamp by my bed, 5bulb chandelier for room light. These are 5W 240Vac and state 25W equivalence, 270lumens.
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Last edited by AndrewT; 8th November 2012 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 10:16 AM   #55
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
..................As for 3000 degrees K for white, it's "warm white" in common parlance. 3200K is typical white for hot lights, 5000K or 5500K for daylight balanced lights and flash. Video white point is usually said to be 6500K.

(I'm the son of a lighting designer, now in the video biz, .........
I count all the artificial lighting based on incandescent to be "orange" light, not white.
I think of "white" light as outdoor "daylight". It can be anywhere from 5000k to 10000k depending on how much blue sky there is.
But your "qualified" definitions are correct, they just happen to be different from my "daylight = white" definition.
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Old 8th November 2012, 03:28 PM   #56
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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Agree. Real white is daylight, that's what our eyes are made for. But in pro use, film and digital sensors can be designed for a 3200K white point. So in practical use it's "white". And at 3200K, most of us will quickly adapt to it and call it white, tho it really isn't.

Halogen can be dimmed, no problem. It's a filament light, just like any other. Theaters have been dimming halogen for decades. They took over from tungsten theater lighting in 1970s.
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:14 PM   #57
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I'm ham radio, and I have a low voltage line in every room in house and I'm using 220V standard electromagnetic ballast 105W fluorescent tubes, and when power line fails (all the time here in Argentina), I use solar cells to charge a 160Ah battery and low power 11W Osram 12V lights. I love fluorescent light.
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:20 PM   #58
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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Very cool! When running off battery you sure notice the difference in power consumption real quick. What sort of 12V florescent are you using? Something designed for boats or RV?
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:26 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Very cool! When running off battery you sure notice the difference in power consumption real quick. What sort of 12V florescent are you using? Something designed for boats or RV?
Yes, I haven´t photos about it, but a PDF a guy from Osram send to me several years ago.
Osram TC-TSE 11W/827 12V Solar Vario, E27 | lamps & lights | light11.eu
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Old 8th November 2012, 09:55 PM   #60
AR2 is offline AR2  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Agree. Real white is daylight, that's what our eyes are made for. But in pro use, film and digital sensors can be designed for a 3200K white point. So in practical use it's "white". And at 3200K, most of us will quickly adapt to it and call it white, tho it really isn't.

Halogen can be dimmed, no problem. It's a filament light, just like any other. Theaters have been dimming halogen for decades. They took over from tungsten theater lighting in 1970s.
Hehe, it gets more complicated, just like anything else. In past you could buy film balanced for 3200 K or for 3400 K, where the first one was for nitrophoto lights (Edison screw type white bulbs) and the later if tungsten light is used. Than scientific expression of the daylight is 5500K, specifying summer day at 2PM measured. Prepress or print standard is 5000 K. 6500 K really did not exist as a standard, but with age of computers started being introduced, simply because many monitors could not display lower color temperatures without dimming - lowering its output. If you remember some cheap CRTs when calibrated to 5000 K looked awful. Barco was really the only one that performed perfect when calibrated to 5K standard.

Now, simply color temperature measurement in Kelvin expresses relationship between blue and red. For digital photography or video any of that is completely irrelevant under the condition that all light sources used are same - balanced between each other. In another word, if all lights are 2000K or 9000K it doesn't matter much because once gray or white balance is performed under that light, it all becomes right, just like if we are using 5000K light. Obviously problem comes if we start mixing light sources, like daylight or other lights that are not the same temperature.

The bigger problem often overlooked is relationship between Green and Magenta colors dominant with fluorescent lighting sources. That is why FLs could have higher temperatures, like 4000 to 5000 K but very skewed toward green or magenta. Actually, FLs have a bigger problem - they do not have evenly distributed emission, but spikes in certain regions, particularly in green. Even when they are "daylight balanced" they still do not have a full even spectrum.

As for the color of light people consider warm light much more pleasant, and suitable for afternoon / evening, since that is the time when natural lighting is warm. Cool lighting is considered appropriate for work environment and lighting mixed with daylight. That is why fluorescent lighting that is on the cool side looks so awful and out of place in some homes, seen at night.

The bigger problem in my mind that LED lighting needs to overcome is its character. We rarely use direct light. Home lighting is always diffused or indirect. That is why we use shades, not just to eliminate direct glare, but to soften it and make it more pleasant. Diffused light or indirect light needs more light output to compensate for the loss. Now LEDs have barely enough power to light even directly, so the only solution to that is to use multiple LEDs. But to compete with 75W or 100 W or 150W bulb in a nice big shade, that beautifully illuminates the whole room, we will need many, many LEDs. What I see as a really nice potential is that in order to improve the light quality and light output. one can use three LEDs, red green and blue to create nice white light. For work environment that might be an interesting idea, having a pure nice white light, but without flicker characteristic of FLs

It is very interesting how is hard to win over nice warm globe designed in 1879!

Man. this was long post, sorry.
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Last edited by AR2; 8th November 2012 at 10:00 PM.
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