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Old 7th December 2012, 04:48 AM   #211
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
I have not watched the video, but read that the lady took them back to Home Depot, so that tells me enough.
I wonder where you read that. The reviewer mentions that dimming this bulb below ~50% leads to an ugly light colour, so that maybe a reason...

At the time the video was posted it was not available in the stores (the guy in the video says he had won it). In the Dutch product catalogue, they're still not listed. They are in the global catalogue, and it says they're assembled in USA, so maybe that's why they're already available on your side of the ocean and Philips trying them out there first...

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Putting a monochromatic red LED light through phospher, do not understand why. Ask the guy named Roger www.rogiervanderheide.com who answers questions on the Philips web site, he would know why.
My guess is that converting light to longer wavelengths with phosphor is less efficient than emitting it from the start...

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FYI, pretty well all high bays require a lift or a monkey to service or they would not be called hi-bays. I am surprised that T5HO is not commonly used in Holland considering that is a Philips/OSRAM designed lamp.
Perhaps our high bays aren't as high as your's...? A couple of years ago a FedEx distribution point was built right next to the company I work for. The storage space is high in comparison to what we're used to. The lighting is T5HO, but only two tubes per luminaire. Most "budget" stores, even built a couple of years ago, still use T8 fluorescent tubes (usually 36 W or 58 W). Other stores and supermarkets use a lot of metal halide lighting. HID high bay luminaires are mostly found lighting DIY centres.

Last edited by jitter; 7th December 2012 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 7th December 2012, 02:43 PM   #212
rsavas is offline rsavas  Canada
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My guess is that converting light to longer wavelengths with phosphor is less efficient than emitting it from the start...
Funny that we got back to this point, as this was my initial statement in this discussion thread, where we were discussing luminous efficiencies comparing using 3 LED sources, (RGB) vs a single LED source (Blue) plus phosphor. I stil have my doubts but I do not have any data to back my suspicions. This information adds some weight to my earlier statements.
Warehouse ceiling heights! Can't fit much into a warehouse if the ceiling height is low. Most warehouses in North America are at least 30-40 ft (10-12m) high.
Hard to imagine that NA is ahead of Europe in deploying higher efficiency lighting in the comercial/industrial space. Our sales of T5HO ballasts far out number our HID ballast sales, even with US DOE imposing a >88% HID ballast efficiency regulation. Only allowed to use Pulse-start HID fixtures/lamps/ballast, older probe-start HID's are basically outlawed as near impossible to meet the 94% efficiency requirements imposed, even if you use an electronic HID ballast.
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Old 8th December 2012, 08:19 AM   #213
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
Funny that we got back to this point, as this was my initial statement in this discussion thread, where we were discussing luminous efficiencies comparing using 3 LED sources, (RGB) vs a single LED source (Blue) plus phosphor. I stil have my doubts but I do not have any data to back my suspicions. This information adds some weight to my earlier statements.
Well, now there seems to be a version in between: blue + red and phosphor. Perhaps the efficiency of red LEDs has been improved enough to be of use in general lighting? It is claimed that these are the most efficient retrofit LED bulbs at the moment and I guess that wouldn't be possible if the red LEDs were inefficient...

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Warehouse ceiling heights! Can't fit much into a warehouse if the ceiling height is low. Most warehouses in North America are at least 30-40 ft (10-12m) high.
That sounds similar to the building of our neigbours. I would expect the ceiling height to be limited by the max. safe reach height of fork lifts...
The racks are spaced just enough apart for a forklift to turn. The luminaires are positioned right between the racks, just above top level. From what I could see, they looked like a dual tube version similar to these. IMHO, a 4/5/6 tube luminaire would have been a waste of light. Perhaps these are more suitable for open spaces.
In DIY centres with heigh ceilings, you will almost invariably find HID lighting with this kind of transparent bowl.

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Hard to imagine that NA is ahead of Europe in deploying higher efficiency lighting in the comercial/industrial space.
I don't have all the facts, but it would seem that way. But perhaps we're ahead on some terrains and behind on others.
A plastics moulding plant I pass on the way to work every day has built a new production hall. Last week I discovered long and narrow LED luminaires are lighting the space. Looks like they're skipping T5 and going straight for LED

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Our sales of T5HO ballasts far out number our HID ballast sales, even with US DOE imposing a >88% HID ballast efficiency regulation. Only allowed to use Pulse-start HID fixtures/lamps/ballast, older probe-start HID's are basically outlawed as near impossible to meet the 94% efficiency requirements imposed, even if you use an electronic HID ballast.
No doubt there will be regulations over here too for industrial lighting. Consumer lighting has had an energy label for years now indicating the efficiency and this site also mentions regulations for lighting in the "tertiary" sector.

Last edited by jitter; 8th December 2012 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 8th December 2012, 05:30 PM   #214
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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I just noticed I missed this:

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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
I used to work in fibre optics, there are international standards for light sources such as lasers, which emit highly concentrated light in the visible spectrum. By law, you as a mfg, are to label your product accordingly, if it emits light that is above certain limits. A LED does not fall into this catagory or the LED mfg's would be forced, by law, to label their products accordingly.
I think LED does fall in this category, there's a "Class 2 laser product" warning on one of my LED flashlights (see post #83 of this thread).

Last edited by jitter; 8th December 2012 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 9th December 2012, 07:55 PM   #215
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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I saw a bit recently on wavelength shifting metamaterials and the idea being they could be more efficient than phosphors.
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Old 13th December 2012, 08:07 PM   #216
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Here is a fun idea for LEDs.
GravityLight: lighting for the developing countries on Vimeo
Of course it would work with other light sources, but LEDs make it more practical.
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Old 9th January 2013, 06:04 AM   #217
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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A milestone has been reached now that Cree achieves 200 lm/W with LED.
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Old 13th January 2013, 04:29 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
Hi Gary,
Thx, amazing, I am learning my lighting trade on an audio forum.
Yes, the ole LED has come a long way from the T1-3/4 style. Still a long way to go compared to a 54W T5HO 4700 lumen for $5
Cheers Rick
Our large manufacturing plant has switched from HID to fluorescent, and in warehouse areas we're now retrofitting the fluorescent fixtures with direct-replacement LED replacement lamps (bypassing the ballasts). The fixtures are on motion sensors, so when nobody's in the area they shut down. Can't do that with HID, fluorescent won't last long that way either. Nobody has to remember to shut off the lights on a down weekend. Not as many trips by an electrician on a scissor lift to change lamps. Lots of wins there.

Bill
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