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Old 21st November 2012, 02:22 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Look up Visual Purple (rhodopsin). Ever wonder why airplanes and ships use red cockpit light?
Astronomers use red flashlights as well. Accommodation from red light goes faster, as one of them explained.
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Old 21st November 2012, 02:30 AM   #142
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Yes, red light destroys visual purple much slower than blue light.
That is said to be one of the main reasons that France used yellow headlamps for cars. It was less blinding (not as much blue) than white light yet allowed for good visibility. Gone now, alas. Low pressure sodium had some of the same advantages.
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Old 21st November 2012, 04:35 AM   #143
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I've never seen a comparator like that. What does it compare? It certainly is massive, and very cool looking.
Its for checking and measuring machined parts. You set the part on the X-Y table and focus the shadow on the glass plate. It has all kinds of graduations for measuring but I think they mostly use the digital read out now. Its really handy for looking at threads or grooves, areas you can't easily get to.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:02 AM   #144
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
@jitter, you sound like you work for Philips or something similar?
No, I don't. I work for a small/medium electronics manufacturer of industrial electronics. LED lighting products have been confined to a few prototypes.
At this moment we do produce the first series of a new medical product from Philips with blue LEDs, but large volume production will go to another OEM..

Quote:
I still say LED's are a scam due to cost/lumen!! Wait til you have to service one of those expensive LED fixtures, i.e.. "no servicable parts contained"
Professional products have driver and lighting units separated, at least those by Philips, but I guess the other brands (Osram, Sylvania, GE, etc.) do the same. Your objection is probably true for consumer products.
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Old 21st November 2012, 09:19 AM   #145
AR2 is offline AR2  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Yes, that's what I did with my Phase Linear 4x5 scanning digital camera back (~108 megapixel). IR filter on the back of the lens. I was trying to build RGB LED lighting banks for it, as the IR filter would no longer be needed. Pure colors would have other advantages, too. No IR or UV to excite some paint pigments that do weird things to the scans. Ultramarine is notorious.

Yes, metamerism. A big deal in the print industry. We actually had some very cool little stickers that would show stripes if viewed under non standard lighting. They warned that if you see the stripes, lightening is not standard. Ever see those?
It sure is!
Ohohohoho, a fellow photographer that knows the good stuff! Many photographers refused to work with scanning back, and they foolishly went for Leaf back, what I called at the time a security cameras, because of small chip. I believe I purchased a first Phase one scanning back that had serial number smaller than 10 It was before Studio Kits. It was around 20 Mb. Worked with Christian Poulsen in solving those problems with color shifts and filters... I kept scanning backs all until H20 came out. The last ones produced 380Mb files, that nothing could beat. Still today with Phase one on IQ180 and P45+
Yes I 've seen those stripes, do not remember who gave me those... I guess some rep. Pano, what do you do? Are you in business or research?
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Old 21st November 2012, 03:47 PM   #146
rsavas is offline rsavas  Canada
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@jitter, I am actually refering the maintenance of the LED light source itself, not the electronics! To me, a driver for a fluorescent lamp or an LED is not that much different, they are fundamentally both switch mode power supplies. Time will tell if they, "LED's", live up to all the performance claims and match the pay back estimations.
We see the LED issues as, what is available today, will it still be available in a few years time, for form/fit/function repalcement. There really are no gurantees from what I/we are seeing from the big mfg's. There really is not any LED standardization as with a comparable FL lamps, say a T8 or T5.
I work for a ballast/driver mfg, our large % of the business is selling to the large fixture mfg's in North America, for commercial/industrial lighting, T5,T8,CFL,Biax(twintube). We do offer LED drivers as well, but the competition in LED drivers is fearce and it seems that only government sponsored customers are opting for LED technology. The public utilities have yet to offer similar rebates as they offer to have customers replacing HID technology with fluorescents.
I have visited factories in the US, where they have over 1000's 6-lamp T5HO fixtures, in one faclity alone, using our product. You start adding up the comparable costs of using LED's and you will find that LED's just will not even come close to being a cost competative option, regardless of how much energy, that you think that you are saving. Time will tell how the LED plays out in the commercial space in comparison of what we have avalable today.

Last edited by rsavas; 21st November 2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 04:24 PM   #147
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by AR2 View Post
Pano, what do you do? Are you in business or research?
I used to be in the fine art print business, first in Honolulu, then on Maui. It was a roaring good business at the time, before the crash. In Honolulu we had an early scanning back camera, the Dichomed (sp?) that later became the Better-Light camera. I think they are from California, right? On Maui we used the PhaseOne back. All for scanning paintings. The only thing that even roughly compare in quality were 8x10" transparencies. 4x5" just didn't cut it.

These days I no longer print or scan, I'm back to the video biz where I do large and very large screen digital projection with multiple projectors. It's still all about colors and luminance, but in the opposite direction.

What's your biz?
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:14 PM   #148
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Yes, red light destroys visual purple much slower than blue light.
That is said to be one of the main reasons that France used yellow headlamps for cars. It was less blinding (not as much blue) than white light yet allowed for good visibility. Gone now, alas. Low pressure sodium had some of the same advantages.
Just got my yellow tinted night driving glasses. Makes those darn HID lamps almost bearable. I don't know how those lamps ever got legalized. As much as I hate to admit France doing anything right, they are dead on with the yellow headlights. The H4's were bad enough, then the Zenon and HID.
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Old 21st November 2012, 05:58 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
...the competition in LED drivers is fearce... Time will tell how the LED plays out in the commercial space in comparison of what we have avalable today.
One thing we do know though, historically, companies refusing to confront the challenge of technical competition rarely survive unscathed in the long term. Anyone seeking guarantees that innovation will fail is bound to be disappointed.

Last edited by counter culture; 21st November 2012 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 21st November 2012, 07:54 PM   #150
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by rsavas View Post
@jitter, I am actually refering the maintenance of the LED light source itself, not the electronics! To me, a driver for a fluorescent lamp or an LED is not that much different, they are fundamentally both switch mode power supplies.
That is why I mentioned the separation of driver and lightsource. The brochures on industrial lighting do mention the possibility of changing LED and/or driver modules at end-of-life or upgrading with (future) more efficient ones.
Of course, they don't say anything about if it's commercially viable or not.

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Time will tell if they, "LED's", live up to all the performance claims and match the pay back estimations.
I think by now enough empirical data should be coming available to confirm or reject projections made in the past.

Just out of curiosity, I bought the LED bulb I linked to in post #102. It is sold as a 11 W/806 lm LED bulb with an expected lifetime of 30,000 hours and 200,000 cycles.
The first claim is incorrect, I measured 12.1 W, which seems to agree with the one in the link. The second claim, I believe. It's actually somewhat brighter than a 14 W/800 lm CFL. My lux meter does confirm a slightly higher luminous flux. The last two claims, I have no way of knowing for sure. If it fails within a couple of years, then they certainly aren't true.
CCT and Ra are the same as that of a 2700 K CFL. By far the biggest plus point when compared to CFL is the fact that it lights up to 100% instantly.

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We see the LED issues as, what is available today, will it still be available in a few years time, for form/fit/function repalcement. There really are no gurantees from what I/we are seeing from the big mfg's. There really is not any LED standardization as with a comparable FL lamps, say a T8 or T5.
How was the standardization in the early years of fluorescent lighting?
My guess is that it took a long time before standardization had taken place.

If LED lighting proves as long lived as predicted, these become fit-and-forget items. Consumer lights might be discarded before they have failed because they don't fit in the new interior and new ones are bought...
Standardization might not take place as it isn't necessary to replace a bulb once a year.
When it comes to industrial or street lighting, I have no idea if standardization of light sources will become a norm or not.

Quote:
I work for a ballast/driver mfg, our large % of the business is selling to the large fixture mfg's in North America, for commercial/industrial lighting, T5,T8,CFL,Biax(twintube). We do offer LED drivers as well, but the competition in LED drivers is fearce and it seems that only government sponsored customers are opting for LED technology.
Over here, it's the government that seems to be the biggest customer of LED lighting. I live in the city where Philips was founded, and sure enough, the last couple of years new street lighting is mostly LED (and you can probably guess from which manufacturer). But in showrooms of companies like Ikea, LED lighting seems clearly on the rise.

Quote:
The public utilities have yet to offer similar rebates as they offer to have customers replacing HID technology with fluorescents.
I have visited factories in the US, where they have over 1000's 6-lamp T5HO fixtures, in one faclity alone, using our product. You start adding up the comparable costs of using LED's and you will find that LED's just will not even come close to being a cost competative option, regardless of how much energy, that you think that you are saving. Time will tell how the LED plays out in the commercial space in comparison of what we have avalable today.
I maintain the lighting in our apartment building, and right now I wouldn't consider LED simply because the initial price is still just too high to be an economical alternative for CFL.
I work in a factory where T8 and PL-L (similar to Biax) on old fashioned inductive ballasts are the norm. I doubt if that will change soon.

Last edited by jitter; 21st November 2012 at 08:03 PM.
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