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Old 15th March 2012, 06:26 PM   #31
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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Source impedance and peak of waveform current demand.
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Old 15th March 2012, 06:30 PM   #32
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that would be the obvious choice, but is there any study concerning this? there can be other causes too.
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Old 15th March 2012, 07:14 PM   #33
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The UK, most european and American mains has a huge generating network and thus inerta behind it. Some other areas are not as lucky, and have distributed generating sets.
Mains and its noise and what causes the effects seen is studied and the mains is monitered...
SMPS's are not the main problem, HVAC is and industry that uses harmonic drives etc.
|Dont forget you home supply is just one phase of the 3 phase distributed network.
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Old 15th March 2012, 07:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Dont forget you home supply is just one phase of the 3 phase distributed network.
good point, never thought about that.

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The UK, most european and American mains has a huge generating network and thus inerta behind it. Some other areas are not as lucky, and have distributed generating sets.
would you please explain this? I'm not aware of the details of power distribution.
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Old 15th March 2012, 07:18 PM   #35
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this is an useful read by Charles Hansen: http://conceptorg.com/techlibrary/Po..._and_Audio.pdf

looks like most of the distortion (except the slanted tops and bottoms) is because of the generator.
I'd still like to know what causes those.
There are a few obvious errors in his document (audio guy reporting on power transmission) such as the generator step up typically being Y-delta when in fact delta-GndY is more common, but in general he is correct. But note, his claim is not that the generator produces the most distortion, in fact it is less than 1.5%. Most of the distortion comes from voltage drop across series impedance of line and transformers.

A 5/6 pitch generator feeding into a delta-Y transformer is nearly as perfect as you can get in high power generation. The generator is not the problem; voltage drop across series impedance is. It's not the 'obvious choice', it is the only correct answer. Not RF, not dirty power (whatever that is), not noise, not saturation. Simple voltage drop.

You can get particular and discuss the slightly changing value of impedance at each harmonic, but at the end of the day it's still voltage drop across impedance.
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Old 15th March 2012, 07:24 PM   #36
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thanks zigzag.
this is new to me and I'm learning a lot of things.
going into more detail, where is the drop (or most of it) generally occurring? before the transformer station that I'm assigned to, after or both?
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Old 15th March 2012, 08:27 PM   #37
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Mains distribution is interesting and quite complex. I did 8 years working in the design dept of a company that did Gen Set controllers. The guys that set the systems quite often explained the ins and outs of it all... A lot of it left be baffled. But what I do remember is the explanations of overall generating system inertia. Countries with distributed mains have numerous large generators on line and back ups, sudden changes in load are handled by the shear wieght of on line gens. Counries without such systems are developing smaller distribution networks, with localised generating stations, these are limited in the amount of power they can put out and are often small diesel or methane gen set farms, a sudden load will have much more effect on the network and thus the mains quality. It is similar to an amp having an adequate PSU to one having a BIG overated power supply, one may clip, the other wont.
Power factor correction is also important for generating eleectricity, if it isnt 1, then generated power is just being wasted, I cant explain it technicly, that was one lecture that went over my head, but I believe when PF is unity all the power generated reaches the load, when V/I are leading or laging each other power is being wasted in the system.
Hopefully Zigzagfluz can explain and correct if I'm wrong here, its not my field.
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Old 15th March 2012, 08:37 PM   #38
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This is the other "Charles Hansen" not the hi-fi equipment manufacture. While this "Charles Hansen" has been writing articles in Audio Amateur, Audio Electronics, AudioXpress magazine for at least 15 years, during the day he has worked as an electrical engineer since 1967. He has several patents in his field.
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Old 15th March 2012, 08:40 PM   #39
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marce,
PF for industrial power eaters is, to my best knowledge, a different issue. large current consumption with <1 PF causes a lot of wasted power in distribution lines and they have to (literally) pay for it. anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think there's some confusion floating about.

there is PF and the effects described above. it's undesirable because energy is wasted.

and there is what is shown in my first post. that's something else, can be related but not the same thing.

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This is the other "Charles Hansen" not the hi-fi equipment manufacture. While this "Charles Hansen" has been writing articles in Audio Amateur, Audio Electronics, AudioXpress magazine for at least 15 years, during the day he has worked as an electrical engineer since 1967. He has several patents in his field.
maybe Mr. Hansen himself which is a member here would care to join?

later edit: oh, I get it, there's literally two Hansen's
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Last edited by mr_push_pull; 15th March 2012 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 15th March 2012, 08:53 PM   #40
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Yes, two different Hansen's (I believe that both are member of this forum) and two different Power Factor concepts. The whole thing is very confusing.
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