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Old 6th March 2012, 06:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Interesting article. He makes a good point about audible intermodulation from inaudible ultrasonic signals, ...
There's a saying that is as true now as it was when it was first said (before the introduction of CD):

The wider you open the window, the more muck flies in.
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Old 6th March 2012, 07:38 PM   #12
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He rolls our Nyquist again, but neglects to mention that Nyquist uses Sinc functions, not square waves.
Monsieur Fourier originally.

IMHO 24x96 is preferable for a solid state jukebox 192 is overkill.
SACD or LP is superior for a reference playback.
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Old 6th March 2012, 08:27 PM   #13
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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LP playback has exactly which "reference" characteristics???
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:25 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
He rolls our Nyquist again, but neglects to mention that Nyquist uses Sinc functions, not square waves.
A square wave is nothing more than a large number of sine waves combined together.

Same goes for a triangle wave and all music.
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:30 PM   #15
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The article shows the Fletcher Munson Curves, even these show the range of human hearing is from - 8 db to a threshold of pain above 140 db at the HF limit. Even if you use 130 db then the range required is 23 bits. What is presented is that at frequencies below half the sample rate there are more samples available to reproduce the desired tone, so that with the proper manipulation you can save 7 bits of information. That really limits you to full resolution only on bass frequencies.

The second assumption is that if you have 192K sampling rate you will be encoding information above the range of human hearing (30! Khz.) that is not particularly correct. What you usually want to do is maintain phase linearity to your desired cutoff frequency. Most folks understand you don't want to put 90 Khz signals into an audio system. It will do nasty things to the equipment.
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:44 PM   #16
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Originally Posted by simon7000
What is presented is that at frequencies below half the sample rate there are more samples available to reproduce the desired tone, so that with the proper manipulation you can save 7 bits of information. That really limits you to full resolution only on bass frequencies.
I'm not sure whether you don't understand what you are saying, or I don't understand what you are saying. Below half the sample rate you can reproduce the input whatever its frequency. You either have enough samples (below Nyquist rate) or not enough (above Nyquist rate).
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Old 6th March 2012, 09:59 PM   #17
Atilla is offline Atilla  Norway
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Whoops, I managed to cross-post in the Dgitial Source section:

xiph.org on 24/192 releases

I guess we can merge those, I've no idea which should be the right place though.
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Old 6th March 2012, 10:07 PM   #18
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
I'm not sure whether you don't understand what you are saying, or I don't understand what you are saying. Below half the sample rate you can reproduce the input whatever its frequency. You either have enough samples (below Nyquist rate) or not enough (above Nyquist rate).
Exactly. People who dispute this just don't understand sampling. It is very instructive to play with DSP and input frequencies near the nyquist limit without an anti-aliasing filter.

I have crunched 24/96 down to 16/44 and heard no difference at all. Does that mean I am deaf, no because some guys (Meyer and Moran) did the same thing in 2007 and published a JAES paper about it and under double blind conditions, nobody could tell the difference with music signals.
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Last edited by Ron E; 6th March 2012 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 6th March 2012, 10:28 PM   #19
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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... but i have heard , 16/44 and 24/192 and there is an audible difference, 16/44 is noisy and harsh by comparison.
Datz 'cause your amps are too big!

Put me in the "192Khz is a waste of bandwidth" camp. 24/96 seems nice. I was happy with 48KHz DAT when that was alive.
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Old 6th March 2012, 10:44 PM   #20
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I've been downloading HD-audio in 24/96 and would be happy to buy $0.99 iTunes in this format. I think it will take a company like Apple to offer 24/96 at the same price as 16/44 to make HD-audio come to life.


The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem states that perfect reconstruction of a signal is possible when the sampling frequency is greater than twice the maximum frequency of the signal being sampled, or equivalently, when the Nyquist frequency (half the sample rate) exceeds the highest frequency of the signal being sampled.

It is desirable to have a sampling frequency greater than twice the desired system bandwidth so that a steep digital filter and a less steep analog anti-aliasing filter can be used in exchange for a steep analog anti-aliasing filter. The reason for wanting a less steep analog anti-aliasing filter is that the digital filter is not subject to any component variations thus always giving the filter response the designer have chosen.


Analog long playing records and cassette tapes have a SNR of approximately 50 to 60 dB, with a theoretical max of 70db.

The SNR of the CD-DA is 96 dB. The Dynamic Range is 96 db.

The SNR of the DVD-A is 108 db. The Dynamic Range is 108 db.

The SNR of the SACD-DA is 120 dB. The Dynamic Range is 108 db.


Only the best front ends and amplifiers can achieve SNR = 120db at even half rated power.
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