Man - that brings back some memories of the 70's. Hardware - hardwired logic!!! I wuz there!!! Wellllllllll - I don't mean I worked on Apollo (but Uncle Buddy did). I worked on surface to air missile systems while in the USN and in those days most of the stuff was dedicated logic circuits - heck, the old stuff was analog circuits and relay switching. I was on the 1st ship to be converted over to a digital fire control system and it had a big ol mainframe computer running things. I think it was running at a blazing 1Mhz clock rate.
Very cool indeed!
Nowadays we can't even build a power amp or a pre-amp without an MCU!
I heard that the flight control computer on the Shuttle was 60's/early 70's vintage electronics as well - very simple, well tried and tested, zero risk stuff. Apparently all the PCB's are wire wrapped and IC's socketed and they did/still do this because a wirewrap connection is very reliable (multiple connections per wrap and 'gas tight' at the wire/post interface). I'm not a materials guy, so maybe someone with more expertise or direct knowledge could comment - is this true?
Its only when you look at stuff like this through the lens of modern electronics technology that you realize that a few great engineers acheived a hell of a lot with so little.
Nowadays we can't even build a power amp or a pre-amp without an MCU!
I heard that the flight control computer on the Shuttle was 60's/early 70's vintage electronics as well - very simple, well tried and tested, zero risk stuff. Apparently all the PCB's are wire wrapped and IC's socketed and they did/still do this because a wirewrap connection is very reliable (multiple connections per wrap and 'gas tight' at the wire/post interface). I'm not a materials guy, so maybe someone with more expertise or direct knowledge could comment - is this true?
Its only when you look at stuff like this through the lens of modern electronics technology that you realize that a few great engineers acheived a hell of a lot with so little.
Come on Thomas, I know that you worked with Thermionic devices and mechanical computers. My brother did his FC school in the early 90's and he had to learn them, as the military still uses them (for obvious reasons).
Bonsai, great link. Always cool to see things from the past like this. Remember that the processor in your average calculator is as or more powerful than the computing that went into the Apollo program.
Smart people don't need technology to bail them out, they make the technology!
Peace,
Dave
Bonsai, great link. Always cool to see things from the past like this. Remember that the processor in your average calculator is as or more powerful than the computing that went into the Apollo program.
Smart people don't need technology to bail them out, they make the technology!
Peace,
Dave
Come on Thomas, I know that you worked with Thermionic devices and mechanical computers. My brother did his FC school in the early 90's and he had to learn them, as the military still uses them (for obvious reasons).
Bonsai, great link. Always cool to see things from the past like this. Remember that the processor in your average calculator is as or more powerful than the computing that went into the Apollo program.
Smart people don't need technology to bail them out, they make the technology!
Peace,
Dave
What - this old stuff???? FIRE CONTROL FUNDAMENTALS
The truth of the matter is that it takes soooooo long to design and seek approval for a major system that by the time it's finished it's about 10 years behind the current state of the art. You don't have the money or the time for a "do over" so you are stuck with your 10 year plus old technology - which will appear to be "simple" compared to the new systems. IF you go by the premise that processor computational power will double every couple of years Moore's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 10 years is 5 generations - or 1/16th the power available now.
Wirewrap was sold on the concept of improved reliability (in a number of areas) and a lot of military systems used it. Buuuuuut like all things made by man it did - and does - have it's share of problems. Oxidation of the wire wrap terminals is one concern - loosening of the wirewrap due to thermal expansion and contraction over time is another as well as vibration and strain placed up bundles of WW ties by harness straps.
I worked as a civilian at a military overhaul and repair depot and we fixed, overhauled, modified, all of that old beat-up stuff. 20 years of wear and tear stuck inside something like an aircraft or tank is NOT kind to anything - esp. if it is outside exposed to the elements (including shell hits).
WW can work really well in labs and low volume production runs - but watch out after about 10 years -
As to using socketed IC's - only ROM's - EPROM's sorta stuff. In fact IC sockets were viewed with a degree of concern because of the high vibration and g-loads encountered. What they liked to use - and the main reason they were developed - is surface mounted devices. Great savings on weight and reduction in size. Theeeeeen we started playing with custom gate arrays - and making our own circuits to customized functions and features.
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I was involved in a project to introduce a digital fire and tracking radar control processor into the HAWK anti-aircraft missile system in early 70-ies. Just the A/D and D/A between the processor and launchers, radars etc was a huge 19 inch rack full of PC cards.
The processor memory initially was 4k core memory, 25 bit wide (24 data + 1 parity). Quickly that was doubled to 8k and a few years later doubled again to a whopping 16k of EPROM.
Coding was assembly of course, and you submitted your punched card deck for overnight compiling.
I remember trying to make very efficient and tight program loops because at one point we had 3 free memory slots left, and they STILL wanted additional features
jan didden
The processor memory initially was 4k core memory, 25 bit wide (24 data + 1 parity). Quickly that was doubled to 8k and a few years later doubled again to a whopping 16k of EPROM.
Coding was assembly of course, and you submitted your punched card deck for overnight compiling.
I remember trying to make very efficient and tight program loops because at one point we had 3 free memory slots left, and they STILL wanted additional features
jan didden
Talking about Apollo,
Regards the did man go to the moon ideas,<<cross hairs behind an astronaut? LOL
I’m not saying it did not happen just a talking point.
When man stepped onto the moon how did they get power to send TV pictures back to Earth. On earth at the same time BBC had huge transmitters linked to power stations and cameras that needed tripods and wheels just to get TV across the UK.
Regards
M. Gregg
Regards the did man go to the moon ideas,<<cross hairs behind an astronaut? LOL
I’m not saying it did not happen just a talking point.
When man stepped onto the moon how did they get power to send TV pictures back to Earth. On earth at the same time BBC had huge transmitters linked to power stations and cameras that needed tripods and wheels just to get TV across the UK.
Regards
M. Gregg
It is just simply amazing what was high tech and what was done with it back then, now belongs in the elementry school books of electronics of today.
It just goes to show what having a dream and the determination to get it done can do!
I found those links a while back and I read a report on the video systems camera design and how they had to design it to be low power in order to have enough battery power.
Which was difficult to do with the transistors of the day becuase they needed alot of bias current in order to stay in the linear region.
And the sweep circuits for the videcon tube used the most amount of power.
Trust me that stuff was for real other wise we wouldn't even be where we are today as far as space exploration goes!
But, I am so glad that they made all of those designs public before they got lost forever.
Just as I now can find all of the DEC PDP 11/70 and 11/34, 11/23 series stuff but I sure could Have used those prints 15 years ago before I parted out the 2 1/2 complete systems that I had.
All that is left now are the racks cabinets,a few boards and the power supply's.
I had 5 of those big 300MB removable drives and I still have the manuals to them ,Those suckers were some heavy Beasts.
It took every thing I could do to extract one magnet from one and I gave up on the other four.
That thing was so strong that it would hold a 3' chain of rachets and various tools hanging to the ground!
I also had the TE 16 tape deck and it was in working order until one day when we pulled it out of storage it did'nt work probaly from static,If I could have found the print as I do have it now I would have got it going again,but the weight was a bit much for just me to keep hauling around.
But it sure was pretty cool!
jer
It just goes to show what having a dream and the determination to get it done can do!
I found those links a while back and I read a report on the video systems camera design and how they had to design it to be low power in order to have enough battery power.
Which was difficult to do with the transistors of the day becuase they needed alot of bias current in order to stay in the linear region.
And the sweep circuits for the videcon tube used the most amount of power.
Trust me that stuff was for real other wise we wouldn't even be where we are today as far as space exploration goes!
But, I am so glad that they made all of those designs public before they got lost forever.
Just as I now can find all of the DEC PDP 11/70 and 11/34, 11/23 series stuff but I sure could Have used those prints 15 years ago before I parted out the 2 1/2 complete systems that I had.
All that is left now are the racks cabinets,a few boards and the power supply's.
I had 5 of those big 300MB removable drives and I still have the manuals to them ,Those suckers were some heavy Beasts.
It took every thing I could do to extract one magnet from one and I gave up on the other four.
That thing was so strong that it would hold a 3' chain of rachets and various tools hanging to the ground!
I also had the TE 16 tape deck and it was in working order until one day when we pulled it out of storage it did'nt work probaly from static,If I could have found the print as I do have it now I would have got it going again,but the weight was a bit much for just me to keep hauling around.
But it sure was pretty cool!
jer
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As a young man I lived about three miles from the Nike Missle base on Cougar Mountain near Issaquah Wa. Later when the base was de-comissioned, my buds and I rode our bikes up there and went down into underground facilties. Nothing left behind but erie memories. I doubt they even test launched from that site. No bonbers from over the pole.
When I got outta da USN my 1st job was at a DEC plant in Westfield Mass. Because of my training and experience in the Navy they put me directly into Q.C. which meant I was making more than about 75% of the rest of the kids there. The plant was still being built as we worked and they would build one 250K Sq. ft. section and start moving stuff into it while they started the next section. The plant would up being 1M sq. ft. and employed a couple of thousand folks at it's peak. Then all of the bad management and stock holder decisions started to take their toll and one of the biggest and best computer companies began to slowly crumble into what is now a storage warehouse for a trucking company.
My brother Patrick made a living for years converting "old iron" VAX systems to modern versions of current computer networks. The biggest problem there was rewriting the old COBAL code - ugh - buuuut the pay was sweet!
Sounds more like CaData in Minneapolis ("minnesot-eze"), than DEC or DataGen!
All of the "mini" systems shared a lot in common as per the technology of the day - take mag tapes or data entry terminals for example - a little different from company to company - but not so much. What kept DEC going was their VAX communications systems.
O'man Ilove talkin with you guys for off of tht recor d my buddy Phil was the one whom was travelin with the pack of the last three hover crafts and was the last one wheom got bluew up But he survived and is one of the smartest ones I know and even though it has been so many years i am not soppused to say any thing but it was his brother that was the one whom took care of all of those systemts through the 80's and was the first one to give me some of the prints to the DEC system it was such a grand time.
jer
jer
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