Could someone expain why some speakers are said to be better suited for HT and some are better for music?
I have aways thought that a good speaker sys is a good speaker for anything. Good sound is good sound.
Is this just a marketing gimmick? Are their specific differences in them aside from maby a smaller size for HT?
Why are some subs said to be for HT and some for music?
I have aways thought that a good speaker sys is a good speaker for anything. Good sound is good sound.
Is this just a marketing gimmick? Are their specific differences in them aside from maby a smaller size for HT?
Why are some subs said to be for HT and some for music?
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Marketing mainly.
specs should be the same, regardles of ht or music.
many ht subs tend to be boomy when listening them with music. while preforming quite well with movies. at least for some
reason: ht subs are sometimes made to have a big "bump" in responce curve.
Makes explosions louder.
For some this is cool.
I kinda.. ah, well why bother to say.
Anyways HT subs are -the less expensive ones with a lotha THX, made in china, CE, ISO and THANX (sarcasm) markings on with large optimal for HT things on the package- are "designd" for power handling, different Qtc than ones ment for proper listening.
Some quality ones will do quite well for both. But actualy it is easy to tell what not to purchase.
If its 4th or 6th order, then its not for quality music. It can still preform quite well with them explosions. Sympthones of "mono-tone" sounding and !KA-BOOM! -ing is sorthof natural for small 4th and 6th order ones.
on the otherhand, when someone says "its better for ht than for music" i would like to ask:
what about moooovies that have MUSIC??
specs should be the same, regardles of ht or music.
many ht subs tend to be boomy when listening them with music. while preforming quite well with movies. at least for some
reason: ht subs are sometimes made to have a big "bump" in responce curve.
Makes explosions louder.
For some this is cool.
I kinda.. ah, well why bother to say.
Anyways HT subs are -the less expensive ones with a lotha THX, made in china, CE, ISO and THANX (sarcasm) markings on with large optimal for HT things on the package- are "designd" for power handling, different Qtc than ones ment for proper listening.
Some quality ones will do quite well for both. But actualy it is easy to tell what not to purchase.
If its 4th or 6th order, then its not for quality music. It can still preform quite well with them explosions. Sympthones of "mono-tone" sounding and !KA-BOOM! -ing is sorthof natural for small 4th and 6th order ones.
on the otherhand, when someone says "its better for ht than for music" i would like to ask:
what about moooovies that have MUSIC??
If I may add my thoughts....
Last year I had the fortune to test 2 completely different speakers systems.
Both systems were in the same room, used the same processor (Denon 4308), same amp (Bryston 9BSST2) and same source (PS3 - Bluray).
System 1 - MartinLogan Summit X, Stage, Vista, Descent i.
System 2 - Thiel MSC1 x 5 (5 identical speakers) and SS2 Smart sub.
Tested with Blu-ray movies, and Blu-ray concerts.
System 1 - Fantastic for music, great for Theater.
System 2 - Great for music, fantastic for Theater.
So both systems were wonderful, and one wasn't better than the other...just different. What were the differences?
System 1 had amazing imaging and soundstage reproduction, and an inherant 'warmth' to the sound. As long as you were in the sweet spot. Moving outside the narrow sweet spot caused the image to pull to one side. As well panning from mains (Summit x) to center or surounds was not as seemless as system 2.
System 2 had detail and clairity that was never shrill, but very revealing. This system also had a cohearant blend between all 5 speakers. The sweet spot was larger than with system 1. However they were too revealing with some music sources which caused this system (in comparison to System 1) to sound overly clinical.
While these were 2 different types of systems they did highlight the possible issues that can cause a speaker to be ideal with either Music or Movies.
Last year I had the fortune to test 2 completely different speakers systems.
Both systems were in the same room, used the same processor (Denon 4308), same amp (Bryston 9BSST2) and same source (PS3 - Bluray).
System 1 - MartinLogan Summit X, Stage, Vista, Descent i.
System 2 - Thiel MSC1 x 5 (5 identical speakers) and SS2 Smart sub.
Tested with Blu-ray movies, and Blu-ray concerts.
System 1 - Fantastic for music, great for Theater.
System 2 - Great for music, fantastic for Theater.
So both systems were wonderful, and one wasn't better than the other...just different. What were the differences?
System 1 had amazing imaging and soundstage reproduction, and an inherant 'warmth' to the sound. As long as you were in the sweet spot. Moving outside the narrow sweet spot caused the image to pull to one side. As well panning from mains (Summit x) to center or surounds was not as seemless as system 2.
System 2 had detail and clairity that was never shrill, but very revealing. This system also had a cohearant blend between all 5 speakers. The sweet spot was larger than with system 1. However they were too revealing with some music sources which caused this system (in comparison to System 1) to sound overly clinical.
While these were 2 different types of systems they did highlight the possible issues that can cause a speaker to be ideal with either Music or Movies.
yup, hence i asked:
what about those moives that have music..
pointless.
its marketing hype.
smart product for the smart buyer, who loves them shiny stickers all over.
reminds me how a continent was purchased for a handfull of shiny glass marbles.
the verry same effect.
Yes, but aren't we refering to just consumer movie DVDs?I think the mastering for movies is far far superior to that in most recent music. In fact, I imagine that most audio engineers expect the music to be played back at 128 kilobits/sec vs movies that have had to be theater quality for a very long time.
We've had Blu-Ray and HD-DVD for years. Even with plain old DVD, DTS audio is widely considered to be higher resolution that Dolby Digital. There there's the fact that high end analog systems have had to decode Dolby Surround since the Star Wars series came out on laser disk. Don't forget that mastering required some care because the surround channels were not discrete like they are now.
Consumers don't seem to care about the quality of the music they listen to on their little white battery holders, but if the latest blockbuster doesn't have "realistic" foleys, there's gonna be trouble...
ensen.well, the people who finance the industry by purchasing the industrial junk.. have simply no taste.
Most of the HT setups around the world have the accustics of a dead rat.
And untill people purchase mainly that pile'o junk, that is what the factory will produce.
Factory has to make profit, if the "usual" 5x cigarbox with unknown chinees 3-4" ear torture wideband gets purchased with a nice and boooooomy 4th/6th order bandpass box, there is nothing to talk about. Thats what the factory has to make to earn a living.
There are people employd for the sole reason to decrease production costs of those things.
The boomy sub box has a good advantage:
there is a rise in "efficiency" at those designs. That means it needs less amplifier power.
Those active ht subs are aiming for that, smaller amp needed, smaller trafo needed.
Less shipping weight, low costs.
If a factory sells a milion of them every dollar spared on those things earns a milion.
Hence, tipical HT sets have "full range" drivers in the 5 small plasti boxes, naturaly closed box, undersized to get a rolloff at 200 or so hz, elliminating the need of a crossover.
-> one could -and probably will at some point- market it as high end, high fidelity, as it does not has a crossover and the assoicated distorsion and pahse effects. NEETooo. Gotta love it. Already seen this scam.
Since the rolloff is quite predictable, a 4th/6th order bandpass box can be integrated as the "sub". So, now You got the recepie.
And same people have claims about the fidelity, and how good is a setup for HT and or music.
Most probably music is some over compressed mp3.
so then... this is partialy an answer why are good quality stuff expensive.
Producing them might not be 10-20 times more costly than junk.
but, since OEM market has no demand for them, even if the difference is just 1 dollar, only a -on global scale- "few" are made out of them. The less is the numbers produced, the more are the avarage costs.
so, for the "sin" of the crowd, the unforgettable sin of purchasing junk, those who actualy have heathy demand has to pay.
Most of the HT setups around the world have the accustics of a dead rat.
And untill people purchase mainly that pile'o junk, that is what the factory will produce.
Factory has to make profit, if the "usual" 5x cigarbox with unknown chinees 3-4" ear torture wideband gets purchased with a nice and boooooomy 4th/6th order bandpass box, there is nothing to talk about. Thats what the factory has to make to earn a living.
There are people employd for the sole reason to decrease production costs of those things.
The boomy sub box has a good advantage:
there is a rise in "efficiency" at those designs. That means it needs less amplifier power.
Those active ht subs are aiming for that, smaller amp needed, smaller trafo needed.
Less shipping weight, low costs.
If a factory sells a milion of them every dollar spared on those things earns a milion.
Hence, tipical HT sets have "full range" drivers in the 5 small plasti boxes, naturaly closed box, undersized to get a rolloff at 200 or so hz, elliminating the need of a crossover.
-> one could -and probably will at some point- market it as high end, high fidelity, as it does not has a crossover and the assoicated distorsion and pahse effects. NEETooo. Gotta love it. Already seen this scam.
Since the rolloff is quite predictable, a 4th/6th order bandpass box can be integrated as the "sub". So, now You got the recepie.
And same people have claims about the fidelity, and how good is a setup for HT and or music.
Most probably music is some over compressed mp3.
so then... this is partialy an answer why are good quality stuff expensive.
Producing them might not be 10-20 times more costly than junk.
but, since OEM market has no demand for them, even if the difference is just 1 dollar, only a -on global scale- "few" are made out of them. The less is the numbers produced, the more are the avarage costs.
so, for the "sin" of the crowd, the unforgettable sin of purchasing junk, those who actualy have heathy demand has to pay.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time putting toderther my MM sys, sifting through all the advertising BS and the far from accurate so-called "expert" reviewers who don't seem to have a clue about good audio at times
I'm surprised to discover that many of the revered audio manufactures of the past are now marketing junk because that is where the big profit is.
Somtimes I long for the days when all you needed to adiquately inform you was a subscription to "Stereo Review" and "Rolling Stone".
Sadly, both publications have gone the route of maximizing corporate profits and now seem to be aimed at ignorant 12 year olds.
Hey, I love the net but, it is a very efficient vehicle for spreading misinfomation and keeping people ignorant.
BTW, I did manage to find a good, low powered, well built amp at a good price.
I got an "Audiosource amp100"
Their philosophy seems to be to market just a few, well designed, well made products and sell them at a fair price withouout wasting money on frequenty coming out with something "new" just to BS the ignorant public.
So far, I really like the amp for my purposes.
I'm surprised to discover that many of the revered audio manufactures of the past are now marketing junk because that is where the big profit is.
Somtimes I long for the days when all you needed to adiquately inform you was a subscription to "Stereo Review" and "Rolling Stone".
Sadly, both publications have gone the route of maximizing corporate profits and now seem to be aimed at ignorant 12 year olds.
Hey, I love the net but, it is a very efficient vehicle for spreading misinfomation and keeping people ignorant.
BTW, I did manage to find a good, low powered, well built amp at a good price.
I got an "Audiosource amp100"
Their philosophy seems to be to market just a few, well designed, well made products and sell them at a fair price withouout wasting money on frequenty coming out with something "new" just to BS the ignorant public.
So far, I really like the amp for my purposes.
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but i allso have to mention there are absolute no-name new brands out there, with rating that look not so good as the over marketed junk.
Many of those are ambicious ones, I had luck to find one named "oTTo", they make cheap and well built amps.
Circuit is tda2050 power amp, and a simple op amp serves as buffer and volume controll, and has a very nice passive tone controll.
Actualy if they had the money to advertise better it might be a nice brand after a while.
I mean.. they made the thing with a quite decent powersuply, it is regulated by lm 337, it has a more or less good amount of bypass, and a temperature controlled fan on the heatsinking. 3 analouge sources, input selector via a biiig and clumsy multi position switch. Amp goes to mute when switching between inputs, there is a "plop" protection circuit with a simple 555 ic and relay combo. No standby function, functions great.
Power amp is based on manfucaturer's pcb design, it is well built.
Outputs have fuses too, it is sold as a 2x25 watt stereo amp.
Sadly only a handfull was available, price was actualy good.
Simple black box, backside is heatsinking, a single led showing on/off status.
Just the kinda stuff people SHOULD purchase. Better than an "ilang-ylang motto: we see your cat no" junk.
There are a number of these things surfacing, actualy a quite nice HT set was sold too.
Sony 4" X2 and some unknown tweeter in the sourround and front boxes along with the center, isobaric 6" sealed bass box. Dunno the manufacturer, I can't remember. I know it sounded best out of the cheapoo stuff. But..
no "brand" name, no marketing kills of these small -probably few youngster made- attempts to bring back the good days, when You COULD purchase some properly made things without deeper knowledge. Trust has been lost if You ask me.
Many of those are ambicious ones, I had luck to find one named "oTTo", they make cheap and well built amps.
Circuit is tda2050 power amp, and a simple op amp serves as buffer and volume controll, and has a very nice passive tone controll.
Actualy if they had the money to advertise better it might be a nice brand after a while.
I mean.. they made the thing with a quite decent powersuply, it is regulated by lm 337, it has a more or less good amount of bypass, and a temperature controlled fan on the heatsinking. 3 analouge sources, input selector via a biiig and clumsy multi position switch. Amp goes to mute when switching between inputs, there is a "plop" protection circuit with a simple 555 ic and relay combo. No standby function, functions great.
Power amp is based on manfucaturer's pcb design, it is well built.
Outputs have fuses too, it is sold as a 2x25 watt stereo amp.
Sadly only a handfull was available, price was actualy good.
Simple black box, backside is heatsinking, a single led showing on/off status.
Just the kinda stuff people SHOULD purchase. Better than an "ilang-ylang motto: we see your cat no" junk.
There are a number of these things surfacing, actualy a quite nice HT set was sold too.
Sony 4" X2 and some unknown tweeter in the sourround and front boxes along with the center, isobaric 6" sealed bass box. Dunno the manufacturer, I can't remember. I know it sounded best out of the cheapoo stuff. But..
no "brand" name, no marketing kills of these small -probably few youngster made- attempts to bring back the good days, when You COULD purchase some properly made things without deeper knowledge. Trust has been lost if You ask me.
When you're mixing movies it's DIALOGUE! Everybody pushes it down you; even in that resonant theatre where the boss has made up for the expense of adding surrounds by screwing them up until they're as loud as the screen speakers you've got to be able to understand every whisper. Then its impressiveness; as long as the loud sound effects make your ears bleed, the music is like the ambience effects, there to give atmosphere, to intensify a mood; unless you're doing a filmed concert or something similar, you quite likely equalise the music to leave space for the all important voice.
When you're mixing the Rolling stones, there's no way you're going to understand the lyrics; in fact, you often can't even if you solo the vocal track. The music is all the massage.
And the nicest sounding music loudspeakers, in the nicest sounding music-listening room, are not always (or even often) the ones on which human voice sounds most natural, or has the highest comprehension factor.
Which is a great pity, as well surround-mixed music is a joy, while all the surround specifications are coming from the cinema industry, frequently by way of the home cinema "sell it really cheap, and you can move lots of them" manufacturers and outlets (that ain't workin, that's the way you do it"), collides with the WAF ("I let you have two of them, but five?! And what's that thing?") leaving match-box sized satellite speakers that do squawk out intelligible sound, even if any similarity to the original actor's voice is purely coincidental.
So it is the three hundred to three kilohertz telephone band that defines the movie experience, rather than the boomy, undercontrolled subs or the earsplitting punctual effects.
When you're mixing the Rolling stones, there's no way you're going to understand the lyrics; in fact, you often can't even if you solo the vocal track. The music is all the massage.
And the nicest sounding music loudspeakers, in the nicest sounding music-listening room, are not always (or even often) the ones on which human voice sounds most natural, or has the highest comprehension factor.
Which is a great pity, as well surround-mixed music is a joy, while all the surround specifications are coming from the cinema industry, frequently by way of the home cinema "sell it really cheap, and you can move lots of them" manufacturers and outlets (that ain't workin, that's the way you do it"), collides with the WAF ("I let you have two of them, but five?! And what's that thing?") leaving match-box sized satellite speakers that do squawk out intelligible sound, even if any similarity to the original actor's voice is purely coincidental.
So it is the three hundred to three kilohertz telephone band that defines the movie experience, rather than the boomy, undercontrolled subs or the earsplitting punctual effects.
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