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Old 12th March 2011, 10:08 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
No, one could not.
You are taking my saying out of context.
An audio designer should be well versed in known knowledge and should also recognize what can be measured and what should be experienced (by listening tests).
How does knowledge become known?
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:09 PM   #22
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I almost never know the original, but I have some good experience of the sound of real instruments and the human voice. I acknowledge it is unlikely that we will ever approach perfect reproduction...that does not negate the huge progress we have made on the back of solid technical principles and measurements in more closely approximating that goal. You surely can't believe we would have reached the current state without the benefit of this technical, measurement based approach?
The progress was made by both measurements and listening.
Measurements alone fail to reveal everything pertaining to sound quality of reproduction system.

BTW, how do you choose loudspeakers to you system? By price and measurements only? Or do you also listen to them?
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:09 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
All sensory perception is an illusion, even live music. It's not reality-in-itself that enters our minds, it's the sensory-mental reflection of reality which is perceived by our minds.

However, when it comes to reproduced music, some systems create in the listener a perception which is closer to the perception of live music, closer than other systems. AFAIK, there is no music reproduction system that creates identical perception to live music. The question is how far, or how close, a system is, compared both to live music and to other systems.
Completely agree, all sensory perception is an illusion - a recreation in the mind of some nerve impulses that we assign meaning/pleasure to.
The second para of your answer, I agree with up to your last sentence. I would restate it "The question is how much a system gives us a pleasing illusion of an imagined event." Assigning any more significance to this illusion or trying to root it in some form of measurement "reality" is self-deception.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kevinahcc20 View Post
Actually an illusion is a distortion of sensory perception that reveals the underlying mechanisms of perception. As such normal sensory perceptions are not illusions, but constructs the mind uses to integrate the senses into an inner reality that mirrors the outer reality. If this were not produced with very high fidelity, we would not have made it here to have this exchange.
Sorry, all sensory perception is a re-creation an image of reality in our minds, thus, different from reality-in-itself.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
Sorry, all sensory perception is a re-creation an image of reality in our minds, thus, different from reality-in-itself.
Exactly.
Kevinahcc20, try to explain the McGurk effect with your definition!
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:16 PM   #26
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How does knowledge become known?
To an individual, or to the public?
Many things in physics started as theories that were either proved or disproved later on by experiments. Thus, often knowledge starts in a scientists mind.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:18 PM   #27
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McGurk effect is an illusion in which the mind favors the visual stimuli and overrides the actual inputs from the auditory channels in order to resolve the visual/auditory conflict
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:21 PM   #28
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Completely agree, all sensory perception is an illusion - a recreation in the mind of some nerve impulses that we assign meaning/pleasure to.
The second para of your answer, I agree with up to your last sentence. I would restate it "The question is how much a system gives us a pleasing illusion of an imagined event." Assigning any more significance to this illusion or trying to root it in some form of measurement "reality" is self-deception.
The word "pleasing" may be misleading, at least concerning some people.
For myself, the more proximity to live music there is, the more pleasing is listening to reproduced music.
To me, there is a direct correlation between the illusion of listening to live music and the illusion of listening to reproduced music.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:27 PM   #29
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Again all perception is not illusion...for instance the next time you stand on a street corner and a car approaches would you step in front of it "knowing" it is an illusion? Most perception allows us to create a faithful model of reality by which we navigate it.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:29 PM   #30
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...and proved usually implies some form of measurement that either accepts or refutes the null hypothesis.
I never said that we could dispose all measurements. All I said was that in some areas, like audio reproduction, measurement alone aren't enough - not at the present scientific knowledge.
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