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Old 12th March 2011, 09:43 PM   #11
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So you could design a current state of the art audio system from scratch using no equations, theories or scientific principles? Just start connecting components randomly and stick with those circuits increasing your joy?? Wow!!
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Old 12th March 2011, 09:47 PM   #12
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No, never said that, but I don't pretend that I'm approximating the real thing or getting closer to it!
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Old 12th March 2011, 09:50 PM   #13
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So it's not about fidelity (faithful adherence to the original) for you...what then?
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Old 12th March 2011, 09:55 PM   #14
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The joy of listening is not measurable...making a system that closer approximates the real thing and (presumably) increases your joy is! We would not have made it from crystal radios and Edison wax cylinders to the current state through the dutiful application of the joy principle.
A sound system's proximity to the source is only partly measurable. Especially data published by manufacturers have very little meaning as for the sound quality.

I'm looking to meet even single serious music listener who choose loudspeakers by price and measurements only, without listening to them.

I have a feeling that all those who applaud measurements only don't act accordingly when it comes to choosing loudspeakers for themselves.
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Old 12th March 2011, 09:56 PM   #15
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So it's not about fidelity (faithful adherence to the original) for you...what then?
Let me ask you this - how do you know the original performance? How do you compare your playback to this for fidelity measurement?
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Old 12th March 2011, 09:56 PM   #16
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No, that is the whole point I am trying to make. The mechanism exists anyway. The random thermal fluctuations in the core sum do not sum to zero, but sum to a thermal energy - just like a resistor. They generate a field which induces a noise voltage in the windings.

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You might want to look at that paper mentioned in post #11062. I think we agree too. A coil over a metal object exchange energy at equilibrium, therefore an eddy current loss genenerates heat and that is the only mechanism for the noise. Excess noise is a particular non-ideal property of some matierials and I am back to disagreeing with jneutron (though I understand it is at my peril).
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:01 PM   #17
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I almost never know the original, but I have some good experience of the sound of real instruments and the human voice. I acknowledge it is unlikely that we will ever approach perfect reproduction...that does not negate the huge progress we have made on the back of solid technical principles and measurements in more closely approximating that goal. You surely can't believe we would have reached the current state without the benefit of this technical, measurement based approach?
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:01 PM   #18
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Audio replay is an illusion - you are not approximating the real thing - you're creating a more pleasing illusion - nobody can measure that scientifically.
All sensory perception is an illusion, even live music. It's not reality-in-itself that enters our minds, it's the sensory-mental reflection of reality which is perceived by our minds.

However, when it comes to reproduced music, some systems create in the listener a perception which is closer to the perception of live music, closer than other systems. AFAIK, there is no music reproduction system that creates identical perception to live music. The question is how far, or how close, a system is, compared both to live music and to other systems.
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:04 PM   #19
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So you could design a current state of the art audio system from scratch using no equations, theories or scientific principles? Just start connecting components randomly and stick with those circuits increasing your joy?? Wow!!
No, one could not.
You are taking my saying out of context.
An audio designer should be well versed in known knowledge and should also recognize what can be measured and what should be experienced (by listening tests).
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Old 12th March 2011, 10:07 PM   #20
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Actually an illusion is a distortion of sensory perception that reveals the underlying mechanisms of perception. As such normal sensory perceptions are not illusions, but constructs the mind uses to integrate the senses into an inner reality that mirrors the outer reality. If this were not produced with very high fidelity, we would not have made it here to have this exchange.
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