I am interested in only a dummy load for the burn in of the Bybees. I do not intend to use drivers in the circuit during the burn in.
John, I am not interested in contacting anyone regarding this, you have recommended the burning in and that is what I wish us to concentrate on. If you wish to offer suggestions of the appropriate techniques then please do so.
Do not assume I don't have the required "listening standards", only a fool would suggest that. I am also not interested in a condescending attitude, if that is necessary, I will certainly let you know. I have plenty to offer in that regard. Either we work together here or we will take this offline.
Further, I see no value in what you and Mr. Bybee did 15 years ago. The literature tells me the advancements are such that the product of 15 years ago is of a much lesser value today.
I am further disheartened to know that this product, even in the past, has had a less than positive result as you have mentioned.
I hope you had a good lunch and nice visit.
John, I am not interested in contacting anyone regarding this, you have recommended the burning in and that is what I wish us to concentrate on. If you wish to offer suggestions of the appropriate techniques then please do so.
Do not assume I don't have the required "listening standards", only a fool would suggest that. I am also not interested in a condescending attitude, if that is necessary, I will certainly let you know. I have plenty to offer in that regard. Either we work together here or we will take this offline.
Further, I see no value in what you and Mr. Bybee did 15 years ago. The literature tells me the advancements are such that the product of 15 years ago is of a much lesser value today.
I am further disheartened to know that this product, even in the past, has had a less than positive result as you have mentioned.
I hope you had a good lunch and nice visit.
lol - for clarity, can I paraphrase JC (parsed from a number of posts...)?
The device makes a subtle difference except in cases when it doesn't.
The device should be broken in for an extended period, but in some cases this is not required.
The most recent reference is 15 years ago and the detail cannot be recalled, except that the detail included the device wasn't soldered in. (from this I conclude that break in is vital (except, as noted earlier, when it isn't), but quality of termination is irrelevant)
Oh, and all Bybee interactions face to face involve food.
On the basis of all this Cal, can I suggest a little fois gras on a lightly toasted all-grain loaf and a good Pinot, all consumed from the bonnet (hood) of a fettled Bentley whilst listening to the devices alligator-clipped to your speaker of choice.
And Jimmy Buffett turned up to 11.
The device makes a subtle difference except in cases when it doesn't.
The device should be broken in for an extended period, but in some cases this is not required.
The most recent reference is 15 years ago and the detail cannot be recalled, except that the detail included the device wasn't soldered in. (from this I conclude that break in is vital (except, as noted earlier, when it isn't), but quality of termination is irrelevant)
Oh, and all Bybee interactions face to face involve food.
On the basis of all this Cal, can I suggest a little fois gras on a lightly toasted all-grain loaf and a good Pinot, all consumed from the bonnet (hood) of a fettled Bentley whilst listening to the devices alligator-clipped to your speaker of choice.
And Jimmy Buffett turned up to 11.
This is because ALL of the Bybee devices in MY system have more than 200 hours on them, as they have been installed in my system for about 10 years on average.
I am in constant contact with Jack Bybee and Brian Cheney. This is because I have shared a warehouse with Brian Cheney continuously since 1988, built the vast majority of Vendetta Research preamps while sharing the facility with Brian Cheney, between 1988 and 1991, when I closed Vendetta Research, and have used the facility for storage for the last 20 years.
Brian Cheney, on Thanksgiving day, 2110, as I was having it with him, told me that he had a problem. A customer of one of his better loudspeakers insisted on adding Bybee devices to the loudspeaker system Brian Cheney was making for him. The customer supplied the Bybee devices.
At first, Brian built 2 identical loudspeakers sets, apparently one that he would show at CES in Jan 2010, and the the other, for this specific customer.
Then, satisfied that the 2 sets sounded essentially identical, Brian Cheney then proceeded to solder in the Bybee devices, apparently to the customer's instructions.
At first, in a direct comparison with the untouched units, the sound got WORSE. Then Brian got the suggestion (not from me) to 'break-in' the Bybee components mounted with the speakers for a number of hours. In relative desperation, Brian Cheney apparently put the Bybee'd loudspeaker on continuous operation for a number of hours with some sort of source, a power amp and using the loudspeaker as a load. This is entirely possible in 2 separate locations of Brian Cheney's working space, without interfering with normal household activities.
Later, when comparing the two sets of loudspeakers, he found the Bybee'd pair to sound SUPERIOR to the un-Bybee'd pair. Now, he has a dilemma. He was set to take the un-Bybee'd pair to CES for his traditional LIVE vs recorded demo, BUT he knew that the sound would improve IF he had the Bybee devices installed, properly broken-in, of course. He didn't have the MONEY to invest in the Bybee devices to get the most out of his design, as he had invested everything that he had in renting the space for the CES demo. We called Jack Bybee to ask what to do. As it was Thanksgiving Day, Jack was busy with family matters, so Brian Cheney called him later for additional discussion. I personally saw little hope for Brian, at first. He needed a number of devices, and the cost to him would amount to several thousand dollars, no matter what. I didn't think that Jack would loan or give him so many devices, but he did, and so Jack Bybee and Brian Cheney shared the costs at CES for the live-recorded demo.
Brian installed the devices just a few weeks before the show and got them 'broken-in' just in time. This year, Brian's demo worked very well, and Brain got several sales of his loudspeaker, with Bybee's, at and after the show.
Now, apparently, break-in is very important with the latest devices. I knew that it was somewhat important, from past experience, over the years, but 200 hours? No way! HOWEVER, that is the latest estimate. I hate the idea, and so does Jack Bybee, but he apparently has found no way around it.
Now in this test with Cal. I included 'break-in' in the discussion, but in retrospect, I wish that I had said NOTHING, because if Cal or anybody else here, cannot hear a Bybee added to their system, even previously unused, then they probably won't hear it, once it is broken-in as well. So I have wasted your time. Sorry about that, it is best to return them for full credit.
I am in constant contact with Jack Bybee and Brian Cheney. This is because I have shared a warehouse with Brian Cheney continuously since 1988, built the vast majority of Vendetta Research preamps while sharing the facility with Brian Cheney, between 1988 and 1991, when I closed Vendetta Research, and have used the facility for storage for the last 20 years.
Brian Cheney, on Thanksgiving day, 2110, as I was having it with him, told me that he had a problem. A customer of one of his better loudspeakers insisted on adding Bybee devices to the loudspeaker system Brian Cheney was making for him. The customer supplied the Bybee devices.
At first, Brian built 2 identical loudspeakers sets, apparently one that he would show at CES in Jan 2010, and the the other, for this specific customer.
Then, satisfied that the 2 sets sounded essentially identical, Brian Cheney then proceeded to solder in the Bybee devices, apparently to the customer's instructions.
At first, in a direct comparison with the untouched units, the sound got WORSE. Then Brian got the suggestion (not from me) to 'break-in' the Bybee components mounted with the speakers for a number of hours. In relative desperation, Brian Cheney apparently put the Bybee'd loudspeaker on continuous operation for a number of hours with some sort of source, a power amp and using the loudspeaker as a load. This is entirely possible in 2 separate locations of Brian Cheney's working space, without interfering with normal household activities.
Later, when comparing the two sets of loudspeakers, he found the Bybee'd pair to sound SUPERIOR to the un-Bybee'd pair. Now, he has a dilemma. He was set to take the un-Bybee'd pair to CES for his traditional LIVE vs recorded demo, BUT he knew that the sound would improve IF he had the Bybee devices installed, properly broken-in, of course. He didn't have the MONEY to invest in the Bybee devices to get the most out of his design, as he had invested everything that he had in renting the space for the CES demo. We called Jack Bybee to ask what to do. As it was Thanksgiving Day, Jack was busy with family matters, so Brian Cheney called him later for additional discussion. I personally saw little hope for Brian, at first. He needed a number of devices, and the cost to him would amount to several thousand dollars, no matter what. I didn't think that Jack would loan or give him so many devices, but he did, and so Jack Bybee and Brian Cheney shared the costs at CES for the live-recorded demo.
Brian installed the devices just a few weeks before the show and got them 'broken-in' just in time. This year, Brian's demo worked very well, and Brain got several sales of his loudspeaker, with Bybee's, at and after the show.
Now, apparently, break-in is very important with the latest devices. I knew that it was somewhat important, from past experience, over the years, but 200 hours? No way! HOWEVER, that is the latest estimate. I hate the idea, and so does Jack Bybee, but he apparently has found no way around it.
Now in this test with Cal. I included 'break-in' in the discussion, but in retrospect, I wish that I had said NOTHING, because if Cal or anybody else here, cannot hear a Bybee added to their system, even previously unused, then they probably won't hear it, once it is broken-in as well. So I have wasted your time. Sorry about that, it is best to return them for full credit.
Cal. On which end of the cable did you connect them, the amp end or the speaker?
John
Ah. Nearfield.
My double "george*10e-2"'s worth..
1. You have to perform this test using one amp channel. This is to eliminate the possibility that the channel response was altered by the load.
2. Using a mono signal allows you to notice if there is a sideways drift in any of the image spectra. For example, sibilance shift horizontally with respect to the fundamentals.
I also concur with others...beer is required...
Cheers, John
ps..I believe it is necessary to use reasonable speaker wire lengths as well, your lengths are not consistent with end use. I also recommend the test be performed with normal zip as opposed to any cable with a low impedance. So, I'd go with two 10 foot lengths
Have you tested your hearing recently Cal? I don't mean a formal test, just a frequency sweep with a quality in-ear phone to listen for dropouts and where you top out.
You could try asking a young person (old enough to be sensible, but other than that as young as possible) to help with some listening tests. Make sure they can hear up pretty high using the frequency sweep.
w
You could try asking a young person (old enough to be sensible, but other than that as young as possible) to help with some listening tests. Make sure they can hear up pretty high using the frequency sweep.
w
"Reasonable"? I don't recall the manufacturer suggesting that interaction with speaker wire impedance is even relevant to the devices' performance; they even suggest using them in AC lines and power supply. Further, a lot of people with monoblocks use short (<1m) speaker wires -- should they eschew BQP's on the grounds that they don't have enough speaker wire to make them useful? Heck, my speakers are self-powered, so I guess Bybee's would be pointless, then.
I've seen no manu recommendations regarding the useage.
As to the manu specifying anything at all with speaker wire impedance, I've seen nothing as well.
I merely recommended test setup modifications designed to emphasize the possible difference at the frequencies of interest while removing the confounders amp output impedance, interchannel content difference, driver gap flux, vc wire guage difference, vc epoxy mass, capacitor tolerance, and reduce the issue of connection resistance as a major contributor..
Given Cal's test setup, and given his assertion that only the highs provided a difference, it is certainly worth elimination of confounders, no?
I find it most interesting that the change seems to be at the high end, where load decoupling will cause the most settling delay..
Cheers, John
What To Listen For ???....
To practice fine listening skill, try fitting a ferrite clamp-on filter over standard shoe lace type line cable and listen for changes - I find diminished and 'looser' base, and tizzy, nasty highs.....these difference are quite minor but still enough to drive me out of the room.
A very good test signal is spoken word such as FM radio news broadcasts, or Print Handicapped Radio that transmits long uninterrupted passages.....even better is a recording that can be played back repeatedly at will.
Once you 'get' the new sound of ferrite, you will likely 'get' the sound of QP.
At this stage, listening to a single driver is probably not appropriate.
Eric.
Hi Cal, I would build a stereo line level DPDT switching box so that the QP's can be switched in/out of circuit for instant comparison when monitoring on a known/favourite amplifier/speaker system.
It may be that you are not sure of what to be listening for, especially when the difference of QP is reported to be a fine difference.
To practice fine listening skill, try fitting a ferrite clamp-on filter over standard shoe lace type line cable and listen for changes - I find diminished and 'looser' base, and tizzy, nasty highs.....these difference are quite minor but still enough to drive me out of the room.
A very good test signal is spoken word such as FM radio news broadcasts, or Print Handicapped Radio that transmits long uninterrupted passages.....even better is a recording that can be played back repeatedly at will.
Once you 'get' the new sound of ferrite, you will likely 'get' the sound of QP.
At this stage, listening to a single driver is probably not appropriate.
Eric.
I don't get it. If a ferrite filter makes enough of a change to drive you out of a room, how could you even listen to an FM signal?
I am sooo glad my ears aren't so sensitive. I like the sound if music in my car and in my iPhone, but still can appreciate the wonders of the best systems. If nothing is crazy bad, it won't drive me out of the room.
I don't need bybees or many tweaks simply because the subtle, sometimes even audible changes in the music are neither good nor bad, just different and often not important. Especially at the cost. There are a million things I can do to my system that make audible differences of varying impact. Most are interesting and not good or bad. I don't need to spend money.
I am sooo glad my ears aren't so sensitive. I like the sound if music in my car and in my iPhone, but still can appreciate the wonders of the best systems. If nothing is crazy bad, it won't drive me out of the room.
I don't need bybees or many tweaks simply because the subtle, sometimes even audible changes in the music are neither good nor bad, just different and often not important. Especially at the cost. There are a million things I can do to my system that make audible differences of varying impact. Most are interesting and not good or bad. I don't need to spend money.
My experience with this type of devices is rather good....what they do can only be evaluated in a system... If you just test with a single drivers you won't hear the musical improvements they create...not saying they create miracles... But its like using good foundation or a good cable loom...They can create a synergy that can be quite addictive and hard to live without.. but the improvements are small and to be honest the capability of your system determine just how big the magnitude will be..
Eric
You can even use a SPST or a DPST (for two DUTs) switch that shorts out the DUT for an even better test as this will not temporarily open the signal path thus making the switchover less obvious.
Philip
I hear 14K I don't hear 15K
Not a bad idea. That might come at the end as for now I am wondering what these devices do for me
John, to be honest, the difference was so slight as to be written off as possibly the relatively low resistance of 0.05 ohm or perhaps psychoacoustics. The perceived difference in the high end only may be personal. It may be the difference noted was noted at all frequencies but I am not sensitive to it.
All fine and dandy Eric I have some oversized DPDT power switches but these Slipstreams are not intended for full systems, they are recommended for smaller midranges and tweeters, hence my choice of drivers. Trust me, I have enough woofer muscle to level a small house but I am not looking to use these outside the recommended installations.
I have no idea what you have typed.
So are individual tones. Now that I have a generator I am looking forward to testing with them.
Except that this is what the manufacturer recommends.
Better tell Mr Bybee to alter the sales brochure.
The capability of my system? For goodness sakes man I have upwards of 20 pairs of complete speakers, many main amplifiers, over a dozen bass amps and lotsa different sources in this one house alone. The system can be as cheap or as "capable" as you want it to be. I just want to hear an improvement or at least a difference and do so according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
Hi Cal, I am suggesting using the QP's at line level. The switch needs to be mechanically quiet.
Amazon.com: Ferrite Core 1/4" Cord Noise Suppressor: ElectronicsI have no idea what you have typed.
I don't agree... 0.1 dB changes in level, or minor change in distortion or minor change in noise will be nigh on impossible to detect using single tone.
The point of suggesting 'spoken word' is that any changes in timbre will be more easily detected.
Eric.
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