Is high-end audio just lots of gimmicks and high price tags ??

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Are you sure? I mean really, really sure? Think before you answer.

Part 2 of the question: Reproduction of what?

Yes I mean this is a very good question. We are supposed to be making the hifi reproduce the real event as closely as it can.

But, in reality, this isn't really true, what we're doing is making a hifi that pleases us the most.

IE, if turning up the bass knob a bit makes it more pleasing to your ears, why not? It might be unrealistic, but generally we prefer things in our past times to be larger then life, if at all possible. Why should hifi be any different?
 
Member
Joined 2010
Paid Member
Although in audiophile circles an amp is usually a box of loss.....
Now, I dunno about that. If you were the designer, seller etc. (and many here even as customers, are actually part of the industry), you might well count it as gain.
Pano, then would probably still see it that way. :D

As for you and me? Yes, even for half an hour's blissful listening pleasure, we still lose when next year the same quality is available in some form with a better cheaper product. :mad:
 
sampleaccurate,
of course. Innovation is possible - at the expense of sound quality. The audio signal doesn`t like innovations. Especially not being butchered by pulse generators and buck converters.

Are you saying that innovation must always be at the expense of sound quality?

Do you own the best of the Class D amps or have you listened to same? I build tube amps, they sound better than traditional SS amps to my ears, but until I hear I will not judge.
 
No such thing as perfect.

The "audio chain" starts at the studio. Boston's first album has the tape noise , Tom Sholtz's broken transistors ... so we listen to these "defects" as an artform and are amazed at the results. I have no problem with an amp that sounds "mellower" or "tubey" , but I really want to hear the recording as it was meant to be (defects and all). Any "color" , I would want to add myself (DSP/tone control) to satisfy my subjective whims. The more variables one can eliminate right up to the speakers / headphones makes for a simple means of determining the weakest link in the chain ... the amp is the easiest to eliminate objectively (crap in-crap out / strait wire with gain).

Part 2 -Reproduction of what ?? ... just as in the case of Boston or other older classic rock , we are listening to all those old 741 op-amps , tubes , and mechanical springs(defects :D). The defects ARE the art. On some more modern recordings there are less "defects" , but as with anything human , they still exist. Since audio begins and ends with imperfect, subjective and psychological factors , the process is defective as a whole. My point was to eliminate as many of these "defects" as possible. What is objectively a defect may be an improvement subjectively.

BTW , "Tubey" .. with it's dominant 2'nd harmonic (below) , is my amplifier goal. I just feel H2 should be at -100DB or lower (tubey -"sterile"), :D
Speakers are so much more of a factor ... which I am quickly realizing .

OS
 

Attachments

  • fft.gif
    fft.gif
    15.5 KB · Views: 143
Any lateral OPS which is still working is not overbiased.

I concede to have ignored "hot" OPS's for too long. I have 2 pair of overbiased 2SK134/J49's running in prototype now. I am pleased , but have been criticized for even the suggestion that 2 amp's could sound different. I have my opinions , others have theirs.

BTW , it took a lickin' , but keeps on tickin' (at over 200ma/device :) )

OS
 
Administrator
Joined 2004
Paid Member
Good points, indeed.
Neutral is a laudable goal, but is it really "accurate?" That is part of what I meant when I asked "reproduction of what?"

I've heard very few "Hi-Fi" tube amps that are actually warm and tubey. I wonder if that's not a straw man. Most are rather straight forward. Perhaps a little rolled off on the ends, is all. But I have to say that I have heard many, many performances of live acoustic music that were more warm and tubey than any playback. Really. Much warmer.

The vast majority of recordings we hear have been significantly manipulated, for better or worse. Is it a sin to manipulative them a bit further so that they sound like "the real thing"? I hear a lot of top dollar systems that sound like great Hi-Fi, but they don't sound like real music. That's rare - and immediately recognizable (at least to me). To me, that is a very important distinction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for low audible distortion, high resolution and low coloration - because they so often lead to a more realistic sound. It's frikin' amazing what's hiding on the most mundane CD or LP. But my ultimate goal is to be fooled into believing that I'm hearing the real thing. Real people playing real music on real instruments in a real space. If the system has to be skewed a bit to get me there, so be it.
 
No , I am actually more distressed by running out of toner (I'm addicted). :(
I suppose "high end" is like politics and religion. Some will go on with 1000 post threads debating ad infinitum. :confused: I am much more concerned with just the right "blend " of durability , stability , sound quality.

OS
 
By Pano - Don't get me wrong, I'm all for low audible distortion, high resolution and low coloration - because they so often lead to a more realistic sound. It's frikin' amazing what's hiding on the most mundane CD or LP. But my ultimate goal is to be fooled into believing that I'm hearing the real thing. Real people playing real music on real instruments in a real space. If the system has to be skewed a bit to get me there, so be it.

Sometimes , you can do better in the living room. I saw the Eagles live in Ktown , TN. ... the Class D amps they used sounded like crap , the crowd was loud , the hall reverberations were horrendous. I came back home and my home system actually sounded BETTER. :confused: Now , Some of the more intimate live shows here in pigeon forge , with a small audience , real acoustic guitars and singers in a more peaceful setting can not be matched on any home system. In a concert hall , the "small sounds" will be lost to the ambient noise level anyway. (crowds , garbage equipment)

So , the eagles ... with their QSC powerlight class D's
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

,might of been playing good music (they were in tune - actually a good performance) but the reproduction system sounded HARSH !!! A "defect" , moving to the back of the stadium one could still hear the harshness. :( I don't know how to "skew" a home system to sound like that live performance (underbias it , or run some class D amps ?? )

OS
 
Last edited:
Sometimes , you can do better in the living room. I saw the Eagles live in Ktown , TN. ... the Class D amps they used sounded like crap , the crowd was loud , the hall reverberations were horrendous. I came back home and my home system actually sounded BETTER. Now , Some of the more intimate live shows here in pigeon forge , with a small audience , real acoustic guitars and singers in a more peaceful setting can not be matched on any home system. In a concert hall , the "small sounds" will be lost to the ambient noise level anyway. (crowds , garbage equipment)

Sound reinforced concerts almost always sound worse than the record. The bigger the concert the worse it sounds ( a rare exception; the last time I saw Roger Waters).

I believe what Pano is talking about is a live acoustic group (string quartet etc.) And to play properly it needs to be recorded with a single pair of mics in exactly the right spot with no processing. And once your done listening to those two albums :D what do you listen to?
 
Last edited:
Sound reinforced concerts almost always sound worse than the record. The bigger the concert the worse it sounds ( a rare exception; the last time I saw Roger Waters).

I believe what Pano is talking about is a live acoustic group (string quartet etc.) And to play properly it needs to be recorded with a single pair of mics in exactly the right spot with no processing. And once your done listening to those two albums :D what do you listen to?

The eagles lacked the smooth bass , which allowed the overdriven highs to tickle my eardrums silly. I actually listen to wide range of material, my "classical thunder" flac's are wonderful to hear . Any defect in the system is brought out by this collection. Port noise , walls "buzzing" , all added to a pure kettle drum. :( At least the mids and highs are awesome. The Albany , NY Rush concert (Canadian band) in 85' was quite awe inspiring in clarity , volume ... absolutely "nuclear" spine chilling accuracy. Best reinforced show I have ever heard (seen). They used many large Class AB amps , it was hotter near the amps ... shimmers of heat !!!

On the "wild side", run a PC based synth on the home system , I've fried a few OEM output stages this way :redhot::redhot: . My DIY creations can handle this abuse with ease , but the speakers can't (VERY careful with the volume). Square/sawtooth/pulse - not a recommended source material. So in this case "high end" would be equipment that can handle extreme abuse with ease. I wonder if all the multi - $K amps would pass that test ?? (maintain stability w/ transient abuse).

OS
 
and what about the rest of them ??

are there any standouts in terms of performance improvements or is it more expensive audio jewelery ie air dielectric capacitors, hand wound audio transformers and teflon pcbs ??

regards
Trevor

Sliding bias , Super A , TMC ... these are real,more than fancy "jewerly" on an AB output stage. These effects are quite objective (measurable ,quite audible). Notable , major defects !!!
(below 1 - near perfection) can turn into a absolutely HARSH POS (below 2) ... same amp , wrong operating points. Even at lower levels , H3/5/7/9 will contribute to a IM "potpourri" of bad sound. Some design "refinements" are overstressed for marketing (Hype) , given fancy rocket science names "hyperbolic overdrive" " isolated gain cell" , all try to keep those inevitable switching distortions to a minimum.

"Teflon PCB's"?? .... makes for almost indestructable ,burnproof and high Z layouts- 20 year MTBF++. FR-4 is close. An overbuilt ANTEK 1KVA toriod http://www.antekinc.com/pdf/AN-10455.pdf for 100$ is about as "audiophile" as one would ever need to build your own $5000 monoblock. These basic considerations are 100X more important than the "jewerly". Derating by 50% will also get you 20 years +.

OS
 

Attachments

  • goodbias.gif
    goodbias.gif
    14.2 KB · Views: 147
  • badbias.gif
    badbias.gif
    19.2 KB · Views: 139
and what about the rest of them ??

are there any standouts in terms of performance improvements or is it more expensive audio jewelery ie air dielectric capacitors, hand wound audio transformers and teflon pcbs ??
I would not state that _all_ HiEnd equipment worth the price tag. Obviously there are some (or many) companies relying more on fancy exterior then rigid interior. And I do not believe in mono-crystalline silver interconnects because XLR cables are my preference. HiEnd stuff do have XLR sockets and fully balanced internally as a pro stuff do.

Regarding trafos the "iron" is very expensive by itself especially hi nickel amorphous core. And winding yes it is not cheap even in case of mass production unfortunately. Attenuators, signal trafos instead of pots and decoupling caps can be found only in pro equipment or some so called HiEnd audio. Teflon am not a big fun of. Teflon insulation killed soviet Lunohod on the Moon:( Because teflon flows that ends up in short circuits within time.

And yes I am amazed regarding what sound we can get from chip amps nowadays. Just do not forget that hi quality and low cost ICs means ridiculous R&D cost was payed by taxpayers already because hi specs electronics targeted military purposes first not us audo DIYers;)
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.