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Old 2nd November 2010, 08:29 PM   #1
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Default 220 volts mains

I want to use a 220 volts 50 Hz washing machine in canada

changing fron 50 Hz to 60 Hz will increase motor from 1500 RPM to 1800 RPM

voltage should be change in the same ratio from 220 volts nominal to 264 volts to maintain magnetic flux level.

so using 240 volts 60Hz main should not be that bad.

What about grounding. In canada the distribution system is basicly a center tap transformer ( Edison System ) so 240 volts is 2-120 volts winding in series and ground is in the center.

In europe they use 3 phase system is it Y connected or delta connected ??? how do they ground the machines ( sheet metal frame)
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Old 2nd November 2010, 09:53 PM   #2
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3-phase system in Europe is not 220 V but 380 V. Actually, nowadays it's 230 V and 400 V.

The whole grid is constructed as a 3-phase system, but in houses usually only one of the three live wires (L1, L2 or L3) is used with neutral (N) as the return conductor. Each one of L1...L3 measures 230 V with respect to N.
In Europe there is no need for the split phase system (Edison system) since mains voltage is already at 230 V. The three-phase system is usually only used in commercial buildings for heavy machinery.

You're talking about a 220 V machine, so you're talking about a single phase device. So no worries about delta or Y-connections.
It will have a three-pole plug: L, N and PE (protective earth). A 3-phase connector would have 5 pole plug (L1, L2, L3, N and PE).

Theoretically, you could use both taps of the Edison System (one connected to L and the other to N) and leave the centre tap unconnected (just like a centre tapped transformer of which you only use the "outer" two taps to get the full voltage). PE will need to be connected in the usual way to earth.
It's not really important in which direction. In many European countries (e.g. The Netherlands and Germany which use the CEE7/4 plug, aka "Schuko") a plug can be inserted in the socket in two ways (swapping L and N) without any problems.
If I understand Wikipedia correctly the connection would be according to NEMA6 (hot-hot-ground).
I'm not giving you any guarantees, so consult an electrician before you proceed!

Note on usage of English:
live wire = hot wire
earth = ground

European colour coding system:
live = brown
neutral = blue
protective earth = yellow/green

Last edited by jitter; 2nd November 2010 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 3rd November 2010, 12:27 PM   #3
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So you are telling me that the 3 phase system is Y connected 220 / 380 volts 4 wires, each home is connected betwen 1 phase and neutral.

You also indicate that reversing line and neutral should not be a problem, so working from LINE to LINE to get 240 volts from an edison system should work.

I should of course also ground the shell of the machine to earth.

I did have some information but you feed me many details about power distrbution in europe that I did not know and those will be usefull.

Yhank you.
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Old 5th November 2010, 01:23 PM   #4
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by audiofan View Post
So you are telling me that the 3 phase system is Y connected 220 / 380 volts 4 wires, each home is connected betwen 1 phase and neutral.
More or less, yes.

In The Netherlands (NL) all houses have a three-phase fusebox where the power line enters the house. In most older houses and small apartments only one main-fuse is installed and there is a single-phase meter; in modern houses, however, usually all three fuses are installed with a three-phase meter. The subcircuits are spread across these three phases.

In houses with 3-phase connection to the grid the use of heavy equipment, like induction cookers, is possible. These induction cookers often need to be connected to 2 phases with N (2x 230 V, NOT 400 V!), to spread the 7 kW load as a single 230 V circuit is limited to 16 A (3.68 kW) in houses in NL.

Almost all "real" 3-phase (i.e. 400 V) devices are to be found in industrial buildings. 3-phase devices can be connected using Y or delta-connection.
Very heavy electric motors, e.g., present too much of a load for the power grid to be started from stationary in delta-connection. The peak-load would overload the system. To prevent that, it's started in Y connection and switched to delta connection when at speed. This way the starting load (but also starting torque) is limited to 1/3 of what it would have been when started with delta connection.

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You also indicate that reversing line and neutral should not be a problem, so working from LINE to LINE to get 240 volts from an edison system should work.
Yes, it's AC, so no polarity to worry about. As I wrote, our sockets allow plugging in two ways. As far as I know there's no regulation that says how to wire L and N in plugs and sockets in NL (maybe there is in countries with plugs that can only be inserted one way, like e.g. the UK).
The connection desribed for the NEMA 6 connector (NEMA connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) seems to me to be the right way to connect the washing machine as NEMA 6 is meant for the 208V/240V connection to two phase/split-phase electric power. I presume ground = protective earth (connected to the chassis) in this connection.

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I should of course also ground the shell of the machine to earth.
Obviously.

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I did have some information but you feed me many details about power distrbution in europe that I did not know and those will be usefull.
Well, reading Wikipedia Three-phase electric power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it doesn't seem that different from US or Canadian systems. Two exceptions: we have no split-phase systems and connection across two phases doesn't happen, with 230 V mains there was no need for that.
As a result equipment comes in just two versions: either 230 V single phase or 400 V three-phase.
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Old 5th November 2010, 01:54 PM   #5
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Interesting. More than one way to skin a cat. It is curious that with a 230V line-neutral supply, there is no polarity on your outlets. It is helpful to know which conductor is the grounded leg for noise/leakage capacitance issues.

I'm jealous that residents even have access to three phase power. What a nice rectifier that would be with minimal filter components.
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Old 5th November 2010, 02:19 PM   #6
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you don't have three prong outlets over there?
ground should be tied to neutral at the breaker box.
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Old 5th November 2010, 02:23 PM   #7
jitter is offline jitter  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by zigzagflux View Post
Interesting. More than one way to skin a cat. It is curious that with a 230V line-neutral supply, there is no polarity on your outlets. It is helpful to know which conductor is the grounded leg for noise/leakage capacitance issues.
Hifi magazines adressed this issue. They wrote to connect a device to mains only and measure the AC voltage on the chassis with respect to the earth-pin of the socket with a high input impedance meter (like a digital DMM). Then repeat the measurement with the plug turned 180 degrees. Whichever gives the lowest result is the best way to plug in as less voltage differential equals less leakage current. Mark socket and plug. Do this for all devices seperately before connecting them back together again.

I found that on devices with linear PSU's there's usually a lot more difference than with SMPSs.
To be honest, I never heard any difference between plugging in one way or another.

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I'm jealous that residents even have access to three phase power. What a nice rectifier that would be with minimal filter components.
Theoretically, maybe, but I never heard of anyone doing that. Besides, a three-phase socket would probably only be installed near a device like an induction cooker, you won't find it in a living room or study.
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Old 5th November 2010, 03:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jitter View Post
Hifi magazines adressed this issue. They wrote to connect a device to mains only and measure the AC voltage on the chassis with respect to the earth-pin of the socket with a high input impedance meter (like a digital DMM). Then repeat the measurement with the plug turned 180 degrees. Whichever gives the lowest result is the best way to plug in as less voltage differential equals less leakage current. Mark socket and plug. Do this for all devices seperately before connecting them back together again.

I found that on devices with linear PSU's there's usually a lot more difference than with SMPSs.
That doesn't directly measure leakage current unless you know the impedance of your voltmeter (both R and C)...
If both lines have low pass filters to ground, which are common to all smps to attenuate emi, you will see 1/2 mains with an infinite impedance voltmeter. real life you would see less than that, but not by much.
Any difference is entirely the tolerance on those Y caps. (220nF is 12Kohms at 60hz)

I suspect most linear supplies have no capacitors line to ground (my experience) so all you are measuring is the leakage current on the 60hz main (micro amps), or some impedance network consisting of differential stray capacitance in the transformer. (outer windings farther away from the core than the inner windings)

In a situation where noise on the chassis/ground matters, then the signal should have its own ground, and the two separated.
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Old 5th November 2010, 03:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jitter View Post
Whichever gives the lowest result is the best way to plug in
O, sure, I can determine which way is the best to wire, but going from outlet to outlet (or house to house) would require one to repeat the measurement. It's nice to have standards for that reason, and polarized plugs.


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Besides, a three-phase socket would probably only be installed near a device like an induction cooker, you won't find it in a living room or study.
But if I had three phase run to my house, you would certainly find a circuit run to my audio system. Just keep it quiet ssssshhhhhh......
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Old 5th November 2010, 03:37 PM   #10
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audio fan seems still to be convinced he has a 3 phase machine. He keeps talking about y connected or delta connected. 220 VAC in western hemisphere is single phases, the two hots are opposite polarity 180 deg out of phase, not 120 deg out of phase. The difference between the west and the east is west has a center tap in the 220 single phase, that is used by low current appliances at 110 VAC. There is no such center tap in the eastern hemisphere. With standards creeping from from 110 VAC to 120 VAC for low wattage appliances, that puts the two hot difference at 240VAC in the west, a little hot for an eastern hemisphere appliance. The three phase voltage for a single leg in the western hemisphere is 208AC. In european houses, as I understand it, every low current wall plug has two hots 180 degrees out of phase, plus a safety ground instead of a neutral. He should check the current on his washer after he plugs it in with a clamp on AC ammeter, to ensure he doesn't have too much current. If he does he could buy a 208-220 VAC transformer and run it backwards, but with installation it would probably be cheaper to buy a new washing machine. Note installation in US & Canada is required by code to be done by licensed electricians. Fires resulting from non-licensed installations are not covered by homeowner's insurance. There! Sue the electrician that buys into this project, not me. He has liability insurance for this, I don't.
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Last edited by indianajo; 5th November 2010 at 03:44 PM.
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