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Old 14th September 2010, 02:13 AM   #21
jkeny is offline jkeny  Ireland
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Stick your fingers in your ears & say blah, blah.

Maybe pano wants to contribute as I thought he was running the listening tests
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:20 AM   #22
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Well, I think there is also value in casual listening tests as well. Just weight them accordingly, but it's still data.

From what threads I have read over the years, I doubt those who don't believe in physical testing will be swayed at all by any findings from the testing efforts. I think that listening tests will be just as valid after the findings of measurements as before.

Looking at this another way, I'd like to see listening tests run up to and past any release of measurements. People will choose one truth over another using their own beliefs and values.

As an additional thought. Wouldn't it be great if JC could assist with listening tests? He could even show what to listen for. If he attends in person, he could also avail his other devices for listening tests. That might be the best way to be able to look for a change. You could run one set before he talks, then another after he speaks on them. He may even have some way to buy them.

-Chris
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:23 AM   #23
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
So why are you bothering? Are you being serious now?
In order, curiosity and yes.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:30 AM   #24
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Guys, cool it please!

Just try to set something up and do the testing. Personally, I hope that something can be heard, and I also hope it can be measured. I think John's involvement in a listening test might be a help also. Just try to ignore any pseudoscience in case anyone attempts an explanation.

Hi aardvarkash10,
Quote:
Its not avoided. Its controlled for. Get over it. Accept that EVERYONE going into a test brings prior knowledge and bias. You can't eliminate it, you CAN control for it.
Accepting reality goes a long way in conducting a reasonable test. I don't think that "perfect" or 100% controlled is achievable.

Quote:
bugger. Now we are all contaminated...
Pretty much!

Quote:
too many incomplete projects and too much time spent in here!
Why not fix something up as a stopgap measure? Later you can modify another for better performance.

Hi jkeny,
Why the devil are you being so negative? It isn't helping anyone at all. Besides, what SY said JC posted is correct, a fact.

Remember, attack ideas or statements only, never the member! Don't continue your present line of commenting.

-Chris
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Last edited by anatech; 14th September 2010 at 02:32 AM. Reason: Approstrophe, they are out to get me!
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:34 AM   #25
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I actually find it odd in the extreme that the listening tests promoted seem to be confined only to afficionados - those who "know what to listen for".

Either these things make a difference or they don't - its that simple. Subjects need NO specialised ability or knowledge in the first instance. By carrying out the experiment, two major groups can be identified - those who CAN reliably hear a difference, and those who cannot.

After that further testing can be done amongst those who CAN reliably identify the component to find out WHAT is allowing them to identify it.

This is the perfect experiment for a Masters or Doctorate student with an interest in human hearing and perception.

WADR anatech, a personally administered, sighted listeniing test is as relevant a test as me looking at an items price tag and saying "F**K me it costs a lot - it MUST work". The only data it provides is data on the inability of individuals to understand scientific process.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:38 AM   #26
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OT

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Why not fix something up as a stopgap measure? Later you can modify another for better performance.

-Chris
Yep - thats the process! But I'm sure you've done it - "I'll just change... hey what about... well I'm so far in know I may as well...." hehehe.

Love it.

End OT
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:53 AM   #27
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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There is so much chat about these Bybees that I don't see how a listening test could be without expectation. The measurements will probably influence the listening tests, but that's the breaks. All the spin and positive reviews will also have an effect on the listening. There is nothing we can do about that except true double blind testing. No one in the test knows what is being tested. That would be best.

Hmmm.... I may be able to arrange that.
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Old 14th September 2010, 03:31 AM   #28
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Hi Pano,
Please do. I'd be interested in the results. I'm a closet listener you know ...

Hi aardvarkash10,
Quote:
But I'm sure you've done it - "I'll just change... hey what about... well I'm so far in know I may as well...." hehehe.
Oh yeah! I just did that again in fact.

It wouldn't be so bad if there weren't audible and measured improvements. Th problem is that there really are. I can hear it, the customers can hear it, and bloody hell, I can measure it too. That all adds up to a lot of work on the bench just trying to finish something simple.

However, I can trick myself by saying "let's just clean it up, correct bias and offset plus maybe tuner alignment (couple hours now) and I'll attack this later. I use this as a pre-screening method. Units that don't have potential are traded for something else. Looking at the schematic often shows me what can be improved resulting in very good performance, and which ones are simply not ever going to be worthwhile.

Come on, if I can do it, so can you.

-Chris
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Old 14th September 2010, 03:43 AM   #29
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OT (again...) for Chris:
yeah, well to mollify you a bit, the signature line is another example of my tendancy to hyperbole. A pre-amp including a Cornet octal phono section feeds a barstardised EL36 (6CM5) pp power amp into some Zaph-clone wall speakers via a Wharfdale Sub.

The kids all listen to their i-Pods through EL84SE units (three of) and a range of different cast-off speaker experiments.

THe scope lives in the lounge...
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Old 14th September 2010, 04:06 AM   #30
anatech is offline anatech  Canada
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Smile End of O.T. chatter

Hi aardvarkash10,
Quote:
yeah, well to mollify you a bit, the signature line is another example of my tendancy to hyperbole. A pre-amp including a Cornet octal phono section feeds a barstardised EL36 (6CM5) pp power amp into some Zaph-clone wall speakers via a Wharfdale Sub.
See? There is hope for you yet!

-Chris
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