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Old 17th February 2011, 02:38 PM   #1501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Kind of specialist parts no? Do you have links, I'm curious Wouldn't the other wiring in the circuit contribute inductance well above this 1nH level, or is that unimportant here?
Kind of specialist parts??? Shirley you jest. You will be unable to purchase one. Only build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
The current view resistor is what I used as my reference- not at all exotic, easy to buy (Mouser), at least here in the US, and pretty cheap.
My constructed CVR used far better parts.....they came from digi-key..

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
Sy did you do any of this?
The specified test cannot be performed at the level I wish using off the shelf CVR's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I am testing the device's claims. There's nothing on their website about gigahertz.
I must apologize here. The resistor design I use is geometrically flat to frequencies well above a gig, having no loop to trap time varying flux. I in no way meant to imply that the devices must be tested to those frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Why would this be? Got a cite for the increase in inductance at high frequencies? Perhaps Mr Neutron would be able to chime in about internal vs external inductances but as far as I can see, the internal inductance tends towards zero as the frequency climbs.
As frequency increases, the current will concentrate towards the surface. This will result in increased conductor resistance due to decreased conductor internal involvement. This effect is reduced a tad due to the resistivity of the steel, but the net effect will be inductive reduction. A steel cylindrical conductor will have 15 nH per foot times the permeability of the steel of the leads, that will reduce as skinning happens. The external field and therefore inductance, is not affected by the within conductor current density profile as long as it's cylindrically symmetric.

If the leads are steel clad with copper internal, the inductance will increase as skinning occurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Ya think?
It's performance art, it really is. I have to doff my hat to the master.
Quite honestly, I think along those lines as well. However, I will not allow my belief to alter how I would perform testing on a 25 milliohm device.

Throw out the provided explanation guys, it's diversionary.

Think ground loop, EMC, ferrite bead, rf intrusion. Forget Halleys comet..
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
No, it doesn't. But there's no mention of cheap carbon resistors here. The reference resistor used is a metal foil.
My resistors were constructed using metal foil resistors as well.
P/n:

P10.0CACT-ND and BC 1.0W-1CT-ND.

Cheers, John
 
Old 17th February 2011, 02:44 PM   #1502
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
.................................................. ............
So why nothing like that for the Bybee? If it affects the signal enough to be heard by so many, why does that change not appear in measurements?
Using a convenient "perhaps", perhaps the measurements are thus far insufficient. Maybee a Bybee requires to be measured more broadly and in greater depth before yielding of it's nature?

And maybee a full subjective test is in order? And here - taking a clue from fdegrave's response in a much earlier thread, it is essential that the system in which it is tested is suitable for purpose in so far as that it is a system which is accepted as giving the best possible analytical sound prior to insertion of the device.
 
Old 17th February 2011, 03:28 PM   #1503
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Eric,

Pics of a CVR.

The theory is this: any current in space creates a magnetic field, right hand rule.

The only way to stop this is zero current. Net zero current. A coax does this, coaxial microwave resistors count on this for net zero internal inductance, but the return current has to go somewhere, and it's that seperation that causes magnetic energy storage.. (note: inductance by definition is the relationship between the current within a system and the total energy stored within the magnetic field.

Another method of zeroing the current is to have the currents flow through each other in a distributed fashion. This is what I do.

In this pic, the current flows in the very top plate (clad perf on 100 mil centers) through one half the resistors. Note half the resistors have a blue insulating sleeve (kynar) keeping it from contacting the center plate. The current goes through half the resistors to the bottom plate. There, the current goes up the other half of the resistors to the middle plate.

Within the distributed structure of the resistor matrix, there is very little stored energy as there is very little magnetic field. If you wished to calculate it, that's easy also. A pair will have about 200 nH per foot inductance. 1/4 inch is 200/(12*4), or 4.16 nH per resistor pair. This resistor has 20 pairs, so the overall inductance will be about 4.16/20, or 208 picohenries.

You will not be able to measure this inductance regardless of the equipment you use.

Note in the second pic where I tap for the voltage reading. Also note that this construct has no net external field, so the twisted pair cannot pick up any error from within.

Cheers, John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CVR1.jpg (164.1 KB, 493 views)
File Type: jpg CVR2.jpg (266.0 KB, 485 views)
 
Old 17th February 2011, 03:44 PM   #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Actually, I did. Used the deflection of an oscilloscope beam as a crude detector. Agree on the last.
Sy,

Here I was rooting for the deflection of the electron beam in a vacuum to change. A nice demonstration of warp drive!

I suspect a more reasonable test would have been to use a Time Domain Reflectometer and seen if the velocity of propagation changed in a conductor.

Just for fun I decided to try my "Macrame" filter and see what it did to the propagation velocity in a cable. I used my TDR and a 75' cable. Attached are pictures of the results (Sorry my TDR is too old to directly provide data)

The brightness to the right is the time marker or reference. It is the same in both tests.


Jan,

The image in the reflection is the most recent picture of me!


ES
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2011_0217Misc0010.JPG (621.6 KB, 477 views)
File Type: jpg 2011_0217Misc0011.JPG (627.5 KB, 459 views)

Last edited by simon7000; 17th February 2011 at 03:48 PM.
 
Old 17th February 2011, 05:04 PM   #1505
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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Just had to point out the most basic electrical concept: average electron velocity is proportional to current/conductor diameter.

So increasing electron velocity means you have decreased the conductor size or increased the current. The only effect on the signal is the change in LCR from the change in conductor size. IE as much effect as splicing in a 1 inch piece of 18 gauge speaker wire at the end of your 16 gauge run. (the 1 inch piece "increases electron velocity")
 
Old 17th February 2011, 05:14 PM   #1506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
Just had to point out the most basic electrical concept: average electron velocity is proportional to current/conductor diameter.

"...at the same current."
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Old 17th February 2011, 05:49 PM   #1507
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianco View Post
My own view is that the thread needs to be abandoned and join that other great never likely to get anywhere thread concerning sound quality and cables! But it is fair to say that threads like these do keep many off the street.
This one is really a pain to maintain when there are no new measurements or other forthcoming evaluations are delaying. Has to lock up again until something new comes up data wise. Its too time consuming. Some snide stuff etc. went BTW. New wits round when with new data.
 

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