Previously in this thread, it seems like the words superior and inferior were used, which would seem to imply judgement. Such as, "this wine is superior," would seem to be a statement or judgement about the wine itself more so than one's preference for it. I was responding to that kind of interpretation. If the words were intended to refer to personal preferences only, then I may have misunderstood.
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For the portable category, those sporting a rather flat form factor:
Top 10 Best Portable Music Players For Audiophiles - Q4 2016 Edition Audio & Visual Pro Gear
For the stationary category, it's about how you can store and organize your music. See the Sony HAP as an example.
P.S. They all have opamps!!! yay!!!
Got some market share numbers, I mean real numbers like total served market for portable audio (which includes hi-end cell phones)? The prices certainly don't reflect BOM but simply recouping costs on a very low volume product.
You're kind of missing the point here, it was about Pono's form factor. If you want to bring phones into the discussion (although I doubt they would be the first choice of an "audiophile"), please note that they are also flat. Nobody was that ill inspired to make them toblerone shaped.
I vote for that in this discussion, preference is all that matters no eccentricity of reproduction is going to change the spirit and heart of what went into the original performance of the music.
I'm talking hi-rez audio people by the 100's of thousands abandoning mp3 for something else and paying for it. I could care less about the package. I'm talking about one of these hi-rez products making a serious impact in the market based solely on the improvement in audio quality and getting people to pay money for it and rebuy the music they already own. When SACD came out Charles Johnson predicted there would be a class action lawsuit where the entire consuming public would demand to be reimbursed for all the CD's they had purchased.
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I don't think that the hi-rez people were ever into mp3. Pretty much like the vinyl / tubes people weren't into it either. Those going hi-rez were sitting on large collections of CDs plus assorted SACD / DVD audio.
Once flash/magnetic storage price per GB felt under a critical limit, they looked at storing and organizing their music collection on such storage. At that point SACD as a distribution medium started to be avoided (due to copy protection) and was pretty much replaced by on-line "hi-res downloads" shops.
At this point neither SACD nor the Pono sales are good indicators of the hi-rez market. They both failed for reasons completely unrelated to their hi-rez-iness. I wonder why you picked exactly these two in order to support your view?
As for the hi-rez market itself - the sheer number of dedicated portable players, at various price points, would maybe suggest that it hasn't exactly failed?
My view, what's your view? Do you actually think Pono would have come down any differently if it was in a nice slim package? Dedicated portable players how are they actually used, do you have any numbers? How many people have abandoned their mp3 devices and paid extra money to have better quality audio? I mean actually made the choice of this sounds better I have to migrate all my listening to this platform.
It took decades from the time a few people had early color TVs to almost ever household having a flat screen today. Just because hi-rez audio hasn't taken off yet doesn't mean it never will. We need content that makes the most of what it can do, we need fast download times, we need low cost, etc. It could take decades as we saw with TVs. But someday people may wonder how people used to put up with old antique CDs, just like with old TVs or Model T cars.
Again, a lot of hi-rez content today is a waste of money. The record companies once made a lot of money reselling everyone what they had on vinyl on a new and more convenient format, CDs. They tried to make easy money this time be re-digitizing old content on new A/D converters and it didn't work. Much of that stuff sounds plain bad to me and I would prefer to have the CD. No wonder no one wants to pay more for it.
Regarding mp3, its primary attractiveness is convenience. Small files, fast downloads. Can store lots on the cell phone. Make Hi-rez as good or close to as good in those respects, and also make sure the content sounds really good in it's detail. Then we might have a different result.
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Hi-rez doesn't sell because 48kHz MP4/AAC is audibly transparent in 99% of cases and most people have speakers, headphones, or listening environments that aren't good enough.
The Pono player was pretty funny. Not even Charles Hansen's no-feedback snake oil seems to be able to convince anyone. As mentioned above, the shape and form factor is idiotic.
The Pono player was pretty funny. Not even Charles Hansen's no-feedback snake oil seems to be able to convince anyone. As mentioned above, the shape and form factor is idiotic.
Agree the headphones or earbuds that come with cell phones, or the more common aftermarket variations aren't up to the task of good hi-rez. Prices need to come down, and design and manufacturing of mass producible high quality products needs continued development. Some of these things may take a long, long time. Doesn't mean people won't prefer them after Apple makes them standard in the Iphone25 or something, and people have a chance to get used to good sound as a standard feature.
I noticed the Samsung oled screens on their tablets have a problem LG screens don't have, sharp contrasts lead to artifacts. LG is investing billions in a new oled production facility opening 2018. I know Samsung was/is also developing something here in the Netherlands Samsung to open new R&D Center in the Netherlands | The Digital Reader as possible alternative.
As a concept, additive technologies such as oled are more elegant and energy efficient than substractive ones but it may take a while before a final winner shows up.
smelly old red herring
Alright, this thread has for me gotten to the point of not having any real focus, purpose or benefit. So, I'll "cancel my subscription" for a while, or longer. This sort of discussion seems to me to be foolish and pointless.
But as I step away - before my head explodes - the basic issue reduces to simply IF one can hear "differences" between opamps or not. We're talking opamps that are appropriate and acceptable on a EE basis, and perhaps even designed for and/or commonly used for audio applications. It's that simple. Everything else is red herring, and not particularly fresh red herring. This investigation leads naturally to the underlying question of "what's wrong with opamps". (perhaps nothing, perhaps something(s))
I suppose that there may be other avenues to approach the issue and TEST, but this is a simple enough approach. Keeping the scope simply within "opamps".
Scott, and others who either can not, have not, or do not have equipment that permits one to 'discern' said differences, two things: For you it makes no difference, so forget about it and be happy with what you have, move on in audio. And, Second thing there are some opinions, observations, thoughts and things that I would not voice in public, and/or in this thread, so you'd need to speak privately to get at those topics. Scott, you'd be one (of several) who I'd put in this category, so when you post sometimes, you don't get a public response... not from me. Contact me privately.
...so this is a somewhat amusing discussion, but a waste of time for me. The Blowtorch thread is mo' bettah for wildly oscillating talk and occasional glints of brilliance and insight.
Alright, this thread has for me gotten to the point of not having any real focus, purpose or benefit. So, I'll "cancel my subscription" for a while, or longer. This sort of discussion seems to me to be foolish and pointless.
But as I step away - before my head explodes - the basic issue reduces to simply IF one can hear "differences" between opamps or not. We're talking opamps that are appropriate and acceptable on a EE basis, and perhaps even designed for and/or commonly used for audio applications. It's that simple. Everything else is red herring, and not particularly fresh red herring. This investigation leads naturally to the underlying question of "what's wrong with opamps". (perhaps nothing, perhaps something(s))
I suppose that there may be other avenues to approach the issue and TEST, but this is a simple enough approach. Keeping the scope simply within "opamps".
Scott, and others who either can not, have not, or do not have equipment that permits one to 'discern' said differences, two things: For you it makes no difference, so forget about it and be happy with what you have, move on in audio. And, Second thing there are some opinions, observations, thoughts and things that I would not voice in public, and/or in this thread, so you'd need to speak privately to get at those topics. Scott, you'd be one (of several) who I'd put in this category, so when you post sometimes, you don't get a public response... not from me. Contact me privately.
...so this is a somewhat amusing discussion, but a waste of time for me. The Blowtorch thread is mo' bettah for wildly oscillating talk and occasional glints of brilliance and insight.
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Nice and encouraging.
It is quite beneficial to go back and look from a distance what each one of us has contributed to a thread that ends wandering around.
Perhaps, we will notice that some of our own maximalistically “what if” posts may have helped to lead things astray.
Not that bad though if we make good use of the observation for our next participation in a thread (NFB anyone?)
George
It is quite beneficial to go back and look from a distance what each one of us has contributed to a thread that ends wandering around.
Perhaps, we will notice that some of our own maximalistically “what if” posts may have helped to lead things astray.
Not that bad though if we make good use of the observation for our next participation in a thread (NFB anyone?)
George
Some models were mention but not the operating parameters. Opamp rolling will yield different results depending on what the circuit was designed for.
In order to do a design one needs to consider more than the chip.
In audio forums maybe. I work in a large engineering environment, I can't off the top of my head name a single person I know that goes beyond CD quality FLAC.
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