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Old 12th June 2003, 10:58 PM   #1
SY is offline SY  United States
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Others however, beleive that reproducing sound is a purely engineering based exercise and most, if not all the principles involved are well known and can be allowed for and objectively tested.
I've never met one of those people. Nor did anyone responding to the parent thread make such a silly claim. I think I know what you're trying to get at here, Chris, but you're starting with a seriously flawed premise.
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Old 12th June 2003, 11:16 PM   #2
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I've seen too many of these discussions. They just turn in head butting.

Personally, unless something can be both measured and heard (by me), I remain skeptical in both regards.
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Old 13th June 2003, 03:24 AM   #3
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Thomas, do you believe that we have a complete measurement and aural correlation program beyond purely electrical phenomena, and applying to signal processing, transduction, and room acoustics?
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Old 13th June 2003, 05:00 AM   #4
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No, Sy I don't.

But, if we did would we know which one to use? We could choose the one we like. But, I don't believe we could choose the one that is the most realistic reflection of the true sound.

Maybe with this discussion we are proposing to tuning violins in a sense. Violin tuning is an art and not engineering. You can not put it on paper and hand it to a reasonably informed individual and have him build one close to the one you made.

Audio system components do have a signature sound, even if it can only be described as neutral. Enough has been published to enable a reasonably informed designer to produce his sound of choice. This has been true for 20 years. There is no magic or mystery in the components. You study the material, pay your money, and take your choice.

The real problem is that three times as much has been published on the same material mystify the facts and confusing the relationships to the point it is difficult at best to separate the facts from the fiction.

Possibly we are arguing the differences between art and science. Art is passed on from a master to a student. Science is put in a book and the student digs it out with the help of someone that has been through it before.

To bring the discussion into context, DIY audio would, by its nature, require the disciplines of engineering and science. The form we are using precludes the master to student discipline of art, whether or not the art of violin tuning is applicable to DIY audio.
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Old 13th June 2003, 01:07 PM   #5
SY is offline SY  United States
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Audio system components do have a signature sound, even if it can only be described as neutral. Enough has been published to enable a reasonably informed designer to produce his sound of choice. This has been true for 20 years. There is no magic or mystery in the components. You study the material, pay your money, and take your choice.
Can you get one of those "reasonably informed designers" to accurately duplicate the three-dimensional sound field present at a live concert into a living room?
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Old 13th June 2003, 02:42 PM   #6
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Originally posted by MarcelvdG
On the other hand...
Quote:
On the other hand...
Damn. How many hands you got?

se
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Old 13th June 2003, 02:52 PM   #7
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Only two, Steve. Sorry for causing confusion about this.

Marcel
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Old 13th June 2003, 04:13 PM   #8
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Sy:

No.

But on the other hand, the CSO might not fit into my living room.

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Old 13th June 2003, 05:12 PM   #9
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Sy wrote :"Can you get one of those 'reasonably informed designers' to accurately duplicate the three-dimensional sound field present at a live concert into a living room?"

I think this can not be done. Inherently. Best that can be achieved is a passable illusion. To try to reproduce the sound field that was present at a live performance is IMHO a fool's errand. Reproduced music should be considered it's own artistic work rather than merely an attempt at archival reproduction. I think Glenn Gould knew this when he abondaonded live performance for recording. Much studio produced music produces a work that has no existance expect in playback.

As for reality: "The Iliad" does not give you an experience indistinquishable from actually being at the gates of Troy. Attending a stage plays will not give you an experience instinguishable from a literary work. A motion picture will never replicate standing in the pit at Stratford. Television will never be the same as sitting in the third row for "Saving Private Ryan" which in turn is totally distinguishable from actually being on Omaha Beach.

You will never get Herbert von Karajan or the Rolling Stones in your living room. However, if the media (CD, SACD, vinyl record) as deliverd by the artist and technicians is considered an artistic work in of itself, I would like to be able to reproduce it with as little added content (such as noise and harmonics) as possible. If then I choose to alter this to my taste, I prefer to be in some semblance of control rather than relying on the sonic taste of a preamp or amp designer who bases his circuits on novelty and metaphisics.
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Old 13th June 2003, 06:18 PM   #10
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Sam, that's my point exactly. We don't know how to do that, and the knowledge of correlating measurement with the quality of illusion that we have done so is rather incomplete.

This is a FAR cry from saying that we have to keep an open mind toward things like magic goop painted on chips. Ken Kantor (a guy I respect a great deal) pointed out in an interview that the illusion of reality is much more than trying to figure out how to get the distortion of an amplifier a few thousandths of a percent lower. Unless one has done something extremely stupid in an amp design, the capacitor type (within reason) will not have much to do with the system sound.
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