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Old 9th June 2003, 03:16 AM   #11
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I'd argue that speakers are the weakest link and the lowest fidelity portion of the audio chain. Thus each speaker designer tries to fix some portion, at the expense of the rest. There's a lot of trade-offs a customer has to wade through in terms of a finished product and find the set that matches his listening biases.
I think that is completely missing the point kelticwizard tried to discuss.

Throw cost out...can a perfect set of speakers be made from the existing scientific body of knowledge...that is the issue at hand.

It seems like the "nay"s are winning
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Old 9th June 2003, 04:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadbelly


I think that is completely missing the point kelticwizard tried to discuss.

Throw cost out...can a perfect set of speakers be made from the existing scientific body of knowledge...that is the issue at hand.
Yes, I got spooled off on the immediate post above mine.

I'd argue yes, we can produce a transducer that can turn an electrical signal into an acoustical signal with any arbitrary degree of precision. How musical that transducer is isn't necessarily determined by that arbitrary level of precision.

Take for example a scan-speak 9500 tweeter which is a very accurate transducer above say 2500 Hz. However to my ears it doesn't sound nearly as good as my ESL's which also measure quite well.

I think the term "Perfect" has different meanings for a "transducer" vs. a "music conveying device" We are talking apples and oranges.


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Old 9th June 2003, 05:10 AM   #13
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We have the technology; We have had it for 25 years.

The problem is that philosophy is easer and more entertaining then engineering.

Lads, didn’t we just go through this one?
Anyway, good to see that all of the familiar fingers are in good form. Have a good one.

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Old 9th June 2003, 05:20 AM   #14
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"music is best conveyed with all its imperfections as it was originally played" quote>>>JOE DIRT 1986....York U..Ergonomics thesis...on that note..I have quandries....live music is amplified with brutal amplifiers and raw power the speakers are the worst in most applications....I dogged it out for a few years with a sound company that supplied alot of bands...I then realized why so many artists sounded so good on tape/vinly/cd etc in a recording studio where all the imperfections are rectified
I was at a folk rock fetstival numerous years ago and I was fortunate enough to have a famous singer sit by our fire at night and sing while she played.It was pure and unplugged her mates utilised what was at hand to accompany her....that was sound and I feel no chip or transistor will ever reproduce what I heard...thats my rant..LOL

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Old 9th June 2003, 08:24 AM   #15
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Originally posted by ThomasLMcLean
The problem is that philosophy is easier and more entertaining than engineering.
So is being a whingeing, snotty-nosed hifi reviewer who tries to appear discerning and with elevated and refined standards, when in reality they are simply not pleased by anything, let alone have half an idea how it works. To condemn a piece of equipment as beneath their grand and majestic dignity needs only a stroke of the pen and then on to whats next, with no regard for those that worked hard to design and make that equipment.
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Old 9th June 2003, 12:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Circlotron

So is being a whingeing, snotty-nosed hifi reviewer who tries to appear discerning and with elevated and refined standards, when in reality they are simply not pleased by anything, let alone have half an idea how it works. To condemn a piece of equipment as beneath their grand and majestic dignity needs only a stroke of the pen and then on to whats next, with no regard for those that worked hard to design and make that equipment.
Circlotron, I sense a core of personal experience here. Have you or anyone you know ever designed a piece of audio equipmant only to have it shot down by a reviewer?

Details, please.
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Old 9th June 2003, 03:30 PM   #17
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Great question, I do not believe that we know every thing but we do understand much.
The problem that I see is that we do not understand the accuracy, or lack there of, of our perseptions. But that could be too disapointing, we probably wouldn't like to know that.
I'm going to enjoy some more music

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Old 9th June 2003, 04:54 PM   #18
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we know everything, unless something new is discovered... a little humor. and at the turn of the 20th century, everything that could be inveted had been invented.
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Old 10th June 2003, 12:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by JOE DIRT®
"music is best conveyed with all its imperfections as it was originally played" quote>>>JOE DIRT 1986....York U..Ergonomics thesis...on that note..I have quandries....live music is amplified with brutal amplifiers and raw power the speakers are the worst in most applications....I dogged it out for a few years with a sound company that supplied alot of bands...I then realized why so many artists sounded so good on tape/vinly/cd etc in a recording studio where all the imperfections are rectified
I was at a folk rock fetstival numerous years ago and I was fortunate enough to have a famous singer sit by our fire at night and sing while she played.It was pure and unplugged her mates utilised what was at hand to accompany her....that was sound and I feel no chip or transistor will ever reproduce what I heard...thats my rant..LOL

DIRT®
Hey Dirt,

I don't automatically fault the speakers in that case. Main reason in my opinion for why live sound usually sucks:

- Mega-venues with lousy acoustics. "Why does it sound like a hockey rink in here? Wait a minute, this is a hockey rink"!

- Monitors that are louder than the main speakers. I heard a concert last year where the band started playing from behind a heavy curtain and the curtain was gradually raised during the first song. Initially the sound was just about perfect. Sounded as good as a decent home stereo. As the curtain came up all the comb filtering from the on stage amps and monitors turned the sound back into the usual gak. I've measured levels from drum monitors that topped 120 dB. Image just how little control the guy mixing the show has over the sound of the concert with that coming from the stage.

- Compressors set on stun. For some reason a lot of people in the music biz think 10 dB is all the dynamic range you need to get a hit. It is astounding just how overcompressed most popular music is now. I been using the "Scope" visualization on Windows media player and it is disgusting just how often you can see long passages that are into constant limiting. No wonder everthing is starting to sound the same.

----

The average PA speaker is designed for high power handling and high efficiency (how else are you going to get 130 dB at 30 Hz?). That isn't to say that some Pro audio gear can't give a lot of the trendy botique speakers a run for their money when it comes to sound quality. I'll never forget the first time I really listened to an EAW speaker I purchased for my church. I set up the main cab on center stage and fed it some nice tunes through a decent QSC amp. The sense of effortless power and clarity in a really big room was just breathtaking. It was how you hope a concert would sound, but almost never does.

Phil
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Old 10th June 2003, 02:06 AM   #20
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“We Presently Know All The Principles Which Apply To Sound Reproduction.”
Yes, we have a very good grasp of the principles which apply to sound reproduction. The proof of this is in the fact that you can go to most any appliance store and buy a system for about $1000USD and it will do a decent job of reproducing sound. Whether that system is up to audiophile standards is irrelevant to the question. This system will provide a good reproduction of the original sound and was designed and manufactured based on a solid knowledge of the principles of sound reproduction.

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