The ribbon cable idea is one I've used in the past. Bob Pease talks about it in his excellent little book on analog troubleshooting. My own cable is 12x3 gauge for the midrange/tweeter and midbass feeds, and 10x2 for the subs.
My own reaction for each item on your list is, sometimes, and it depends. Sweeping generalisms tend to be dangerous.
The greatest Pinot Noirs are indeed hideously expensive; a '99 DRC Romanee-Conti will set you back a few thou per bottle. Fortunately, I've got some very wealthy friends, and the nice folks at DRC let me visit for tasting purposes. But Bourgogne Rouge from guys like Denis Mortet can be delicious and cheap.
My own reaction for each item on your list is, sometimes, and it depends. Sweeping generalisms tend to be dangerous.
The greatest Pinot Noirs are indeed hideously expensive; a '99 DRC Romanee-Conti will set you back a few thou per bottle. Fortunately, I've got some very wealthy friends, and the nice folks at DRC let me visit for tasting purposes. But Bourgogne Rouge from guys like Denis Mortet can be delicious and cheap.
Koinichiwa,
Okay. Easy peasy.
What are "Excotic" capacitors? At home in Saxony people would consider my Girlfriend "excotic" as she's black.
So, are Black Colour capacitors excotic? Or are Capacitors with unusual dielectrics and construction "excotic"?
If the "excotic" refers to "marketing" features (like the sleeve colour or the like) then there no engineering point of view.
If "excotic" refers to construction details you will find a large number of industrial Capacitors that would have to be considered "excotic", such as Metal-Foil & Polypropylene Film Capacitors, large Value MKP's or for arguments sake Organic Semiconductor Capacitors. Yet all such items are being made in large quanteties for any number of specific applications that benefit from them. The engineering underlying these items is long known and well covered in the various publications.
One item rarely commented on in Capacitors for Audio applications (especially but not limited to coupling) is microphonics. Sweeping most capacitors with suitably high level sinewave (especially with applied bias Voltage as may be found in circuit) can produce surprising SPL's and the reverse effect (connect a capacitor like a non-electret Capacitor Micorphone and place them in a soundfield) also is surprising when tested for. The rest is DA, L,C,R and G pretty much and of course the various "metal alloy/oxide" issues....
This has been extensively covered in various "serious" electronics publications as well. Given that all capacitors on the basic level cosist of an ideal capacitor with a non-ideal dielectric, a parasitic inductance and a parasitic resistance the issue should be quite obvious and self explanatory. Just draw out the full various networks and resolve the various intearction with a material (signal) AC current flow. I'll save myself further comments. RTFM (M standing for Magzines)
Clip a 'scope on the mains. My main Server computers here at work run from a big "On-Line" UPS, which is basically a PS-Audio style power regenerator with big batteries so it can keep things running for 1/2 Hour without mains. The result is a constant and known quality mains supply, free from transient switching noises, voltage variations et al....
PC Board Materials like Pertinax or FR10 are very hygroscopic, a lot more so than air. And wet pertinax or FR10 has a pretty awfull DA behaviour.
Not sure I "get" you. Capacitors, Semiconductors and Valves are DEFINITLY microphonic, so if your equipment is in the soundfield of the speakers the sound from the speakers will effect the electronics more or less, depending upon SPL and mechanical construction.
Just as many supposedly "equivalent" IC's and Transistors are subject to moderate (or not so moderate) parameter variations that can neverthelless have a great impact in a given circuit so do Valves vary, actually often by far more so, due to their material amount used and mechanical construction, also again see "microphonics" which because of the structures within valves are much more.
I am not sure what you wish to discuss there. The subject of "crossover distortion" is well known and has been extensively covered for the last 5 decades or so.
Well, anyone who has ever designed precision measurement gear is familiar with such effects as the "contact potential" (thermal elements are a practical application of these used to measure Temperature as linear terminal voltage change with Temperature) if you connect disimilar metals together.
If you actually consider the normal resistor construction (copper leadouts or copperclad steel leadouts connected to steel endcaps clamped on the resitive layer which is deposited on ceramic - in many cases ceramic that is slightly piezoelectric) you can see a substantial number of contact points that can cause all sorts of funny secondary effects. They are substantial enough to show up as problems with 5 1/2 Digit precision DC meters (106db dynamic range with a bandwidth of effectively zero [DC])
A new thread for stuff that is basic, straightforward and long and extensively covered in the literature (though not from a High End Audio specific angle - that i will admit)?
This whole thing is a religeous issue. The facts are there, simple and extant.
The key disagreement is along the lines of:
"I don't believe you/I can hear XYZ" and "I know (often after much testing) that XYZ makes an audible difference in some cases".
There are those who wish to believe that using any parts of a quality higher than the cheapest generic **** and any design techniques other than the most rudimentary ones do not make an audible difference (and I dare to suggest that the wish rather than fact is the father of that viewpoint) and those who know that in any number of applications there are a number of parts that better suited than others as well as there are a number of design techniques that more suited to a given application than others.
All of this is basic "Science" (if you follow the Renaicance definition of Sciences derived from the Latin word scrie meaning "to know" or better KNOWLEDGE) and hardly any subject of discussion.
Sayonara
Christopher said:
Okay. Easy peasy.
Christopher said:
What are "Excotic" capacitors? At home in Saxony people would consider my Girlfriend "excotic" as she's black.
So, are Black Colour capacitors excotic? Or are Capacitors with unusual dielectrics and construction "excotic"?
If the "excotic" refers to "marketing" features (like the sleeve colour or the like) then there no engineering point of view.
If "excotic" refers to construction details you will find a large number of industrial Capacitors that would have to be considered "excotic", such as Metal-Foil & Polypropylene Film Capacitors, large Value MKP's or for arguments sake Organic Semiconductor Capacitors. Yet all such items are being made in large quanteties for any number of specific applications that benefit from them. The engineering underlying these items is long known and well covered in the various publications.
One item rarely commented on in Capacitors for Audio applications (especially but not limited to coupling) is microphonics. Sweeping most capacitors with suitably high level sinewave (especially with applied bias Voltage as may be found in circuit) can produce surprising SPL's and the reverse effect (connect a capacitor like a non-electret Capacitor Micorphone and place them in a soundfield) also is surprising when tested for. The rest is DA, L,C,R and G pretty much and of course the various "metal alloy/oxide" issues....
Christopher said:
This has been extensively covered in various "serious" electronics publications as well. Given that all capacitors on the basic level cosist of an ideal capacitor with a non-ideal dielectric, a parasitic inductance and a parasitic resistance the issue should be quite obvious and self explanatory. Just draw out the full various networks and resolve the various intearction with a material (signal) AC current flow. I'll save myself further comments. RTFM (M standing for Magzines)
Christopher said:
Clip a 'scope on the mains. My main Server computers here at work run from a big "On-Line" UPS, which is basically a PS-Audio style power regenerator with big batteries so it can keep things running for 1/2 Hour without mains. The result is a constant and known quality mains supply, free from transient switching noises, voltage variations et al....
Christopher said:
PC Board Materials like Pertinax or FR10 are very hygroscopic, a lot more so than air. And wet pertinax or FR10 has a pretty awfull DA behaviour.
Christopher said:
Not sure I "get" you. Capacitors, Semiconductors and Valves are DEFINITLY microphonic, so if your equipment is in the soundfield of the speakers the sound from the speakers will effect the electronics more or less, depending upon SPL and mechanical construction.
Christopher said:
Just as many supposedly "equivalent" IC's and Transistors are subject to moderate (or not so moderate) parameter variations that can neverthelless have a great impact in a given circuit so do Valves vary, actually often by far more so, due to their material amount used and mechanical construction, also again see "microphonics" which because of the structures within valves are much more.
Christopher said:
I am not sure what you wish to discuss there. The subject of "crossover distortion" is well known and has been extensively covered for the last 5 decades or so.
Christopher said:
Well, anyone who has ever designed precision measurement gear is familiar with such effects as the "contact potential" (thermal elements are a practical application of these used to measure Temperature as linear terminal voltage change with Temperature) if you connect disimilar metals together.
If you actually consider the normal resistor construction (copper leadouts or copperclad steel leadouts connected to steel endcaps clamped on the resitive layer which is deposited on ceramic - in many cases ceramic that is slightly piezoelectric) you can see a substantial number of contact points that can cause all sorts of funny secondary effects. They are substantial enough to show up as problems with 5 1/2 Digit precision DC meters (106db dynamic range with a bandwidth of effectively zero [DC])
Christopher said:
A new thread for stuff that is basic, straightforward and long and extensively covered in the literature (though not from a High End Audio specific angle - that i will admit)?
This whole thing is a religeous issue. The facts are there, simple and extant.
The key disagreement is along the lines of:
"I don't believe you/I can hear XYZ" and "I know (often after much testing) that XYZ makes an audible difference in some cases".
There are those who wish to believe that using any parts of a quality higher than the cheapest generic **** and any design techniques other than the most rudimentary ones do not make an audible difference (and I dare to suggest that the wish rather than fact is the father of that viewpoint) and those who know that in any number of applications there are a number of parts that better suited than others as well as there are a number of design techniques that more suited to a given application than others.
All of this is basic "Science" (if you follow the Renaicance definition of Sciences derived from the Latin word scrie meaning "to know" or better KNOWLEDGE) and hardly any subject of discussion.
Sayonara
so let's build the DIY capacitor-tweeter !!!
I already heard this by myself actually.
I've also heard some transistorized outputstages emitting sound when driven with FM interstation noise !! And I don't know where this came from
I am also convinced that many small changes can actually influence the signal (even those that appear to be complest bull**** from a first glimpse).
If we can hear it at all is a completely different story.
I don't think that the way we perceive sond is completely understood yet.
If it were it would be quite easy to predict where to put effort and where it isn't woth it (and still get maximum fidelity).
Regards
Charles
Koinichiwa,
It came from the output transistors (no kidding - cut one open and try it again).
Neither myself nor others that I am aware of have ever claimed that EVERY change or effect would be reliably by all people in all systems. However, much is audible but to differing degrees to different people and in different systems.
Yup. We don't. And without knowing reliably and accuratly how something is percieved it is difficult to argue how a given physical phenomenae may or may not influence such perception.
Sayonara
phase_accurate said:
I've also heard some transistorized outputstages emitting sound when driven with FM interstation noise !! And I don't know where this came from
It came from the output transistors (no kidding - cut one open and try it again).
phase_accurate said:
Neither myself nor others that I am aware of have ever claimed that EVERY change or effect would be reliably by all people in all systems. However, much is audible but to differing degrees to different people and in different systems.
phase_accurate said:
Yup. We don't. And without knowing reliably and accuratly how something is percieved it is difficult to argue how a given physical phenomenae may or may not influence such perception.
Sayonara
Yikes! one thing at a time man, we'll get to it.
Well that's my point actually. For many on this forum, a lot of this stuff is old hat from an engineering point of view. For others it's all new, and they are just as likely to believe the voodoo that's written everywhere in the hi-end press as they are to go to all the books. Much of that is beyond the education of the average DIYer anyway. I am well aware that all of this stuff can be researched, and I for one read a lot when I get interested in a new topic, but many will not. A forum discussion on these various things can be just what the doctor ordered. So I'll go and write a forward and start the thread with capacitors. That one alone could go quite a while.
See you there.
Well that's my point actually. For many on this forum, a lot of this stuff is old hat from an engineering point of view. For others it's all new, and they are just as likely to believe the voodoo that's written everywhere in the hi-end press as they are to go to all the books. Much of that is beyond the education of the average DIYer anyway. I am well aware that all of this stuff can be researched, and I for one read a lot when I get interested in a new topic, but many will not. A forum discussion on these various things can be just what the doctor ordered. So I'll go and write a forward and start the thread with capacitors. That one alone could go quite a while.
See you there.
Re: Yikes! one thing at a time man, we'll get to it.
Koinichiwa,
I am sorry, but you missed my point entierly. You capacitor thread will become just another of those battlefields between subjectivists and objectivists with no-one any wise in the end. Much noise and much ado about nothing. I have seen the discussions raging in the DIY and High End Audio press in the 1980's, in the 1990's in the press and on the net and about two or more decades later the same discussion still goes on and it has not moved an inch.
The actual capacitor manufacturers BTW have moved and a lot, though their improvements to the technology where not driven by audio but by a need to deal with switching supplies, high speed digital and the like.
I will repeat my earlier advise to those who really wish to know what is going on:
#Investigate [the subject] yourself and if you find that after studying the subject in theory (Rules 8 & 10) and learning the origin of the metals (Rule 5) and taking great caution of charlatans of either doctrin (Rule 6) and after attempting the practice (Law 1 & Rule 2) you still find only a hollow ring, consider the matter closed to you.
Yet if you find more than just the empty ring of deceit and self deceit, act upon your experience and science (science from the greek [sorry, it's a latin word] word of knowledge) and not upon the word(s) and ideas of those who "teach their own ideas and commandments as doctrine".#
For all the rest who wish to blindly believe one thing or the other, let them believe. For what good are flashlights, electric torches and floodlights to those who ferverently keep their eyes closed?
Sayonara
Koinichiwa,
Christopher said:
I am sorry, but you missed my point entierly. You capacitor thread will become just another of those battlefields between subjectivists and objectivists with no-one any wise in the end. Much noise and much ado about nothing. I have seen the discussions raging in the DIY and High End Audio press in the 1980's, in the 1990's in the press and on the net and about two or more decades later the same discussion still goes on and it has not moved an inch.
The actual capacitor manufacturers BTW have moved and a lot, though their improvements to the technology where not driven by audio but by a need to deal with switching supplies, high speed digital and the like.
I will repeat my earlier advise to those who really wish to know what is going on:
#Investigate [the subject] yourself and if you find that after studying the subject in theory (Rules 8 & 10) and learning the origin of the metals (Rule 5) and taking great caution of charlatans of either doctrin (Rule 6) and after attempting the practice (Law 1 & Rule 2) you still find only a hollow ring, consider the matter closed to you.
Yet if you find more than just the empty ring of deceit and self deceit, act upon your experience and science (science from the greek [sorry, it's a latin word] word of knowledge) and not upon the word(s) and ideas of those who "teach their own ideas and commandments as doctrine".#
For all the rest who wish to blindly believe one thing or the other, let them believe. For what good are flashlights, electric torches and floodlights to those who ferverently keep their eyes closed?
Sayonara
one can only hope
I posted an new thread under everything else, entitled 'capacitors, an engineering choice'
Check it out, I'm hoping to keep the voodoo out of the discussion. If you feel it's not worth your time then I am sorry that we will miss your input. If we simply do not discuss the subjective aspects of the topic, then it will not turn into such a debate. I agree with you completely, that will never be solved, nor will the existance of a god. But we can discuss how a capactitor operates in circuit, and how to choose one based on the body of engineering knowledge we have before us can we not?
Indulge me, I'm a hopeless optimist, check it out.
Chris
I posted an new thread under everything else, entitled 'capacitors, an engineering choice'
Check it out, I'm hoping to keep the voodoo out of the discussion. If you feel it's not worth your time then I am sorry that we will miss your input. If we simply do not discuss the subjective aspects of the topic, then it will not turn into such a debate. I agree with you completely, that will never be solved, nor will the existance of a god. But we can discuss how a capactitor operates in circuit, and how to choose one based on the body of engineering knowledge we have before us can we not?
Indulge me, I'm a hopeless optimist, check it out.
Chris
Koinichiwa,
That's a valid opinion.
Hardly. I really hate to give away some of the real secrets, but simply plot the current variation through output devices in Class A (and we ARE talking ture, scalding hot running Class A) and in Class AB. Then plot the compound output stages Beta/GM/Yfs vs. current in the device.
It is elementary Watson. It even holds absolutely true for the oh so linear "triodes".
Sayonara
ALW said:
That's a valid opinion.
ALW said:
Hardly. I really hate to give away some of the real secrets, but simply plot the current variation through output devices in Class A (and we ARE talking ture, scalding hot running Class A) and in Class AB. Then plot the compound output stages Beta/GM/Yfs vs. current in the device.
It is elementary Watson. It even holds absolutely true for the oh so linear "triodes".
Sayonara
The design of a class AB amp requires attention to details that are not necessary in class A designs - failing to deal with these issues results in crossover distortion.
In the same way that feedback is blamed for other effects like TIM etc. all of which are failures to get the design, as a whole, right.
Andy.
Koinichiwa,
Okay, I go with that. Except, you need transistors (or Valves or FET's) in the output stage that are almost not manufacturerd and the stuff Semlab made in the earlier days for Naim was as bad as anything (to keep a topical glimpse).
So, with reasonably available devices class AB invariably leads to problems. Of course, a sufficient devotion to the worship of a given manufacturer can make such minor inconveniences go away easily, to the mind of the believer.
I will agree that in pure, unapplied theory Class A and Class AB can be made to perform identically. But once we deal with real components - sorry no such luck buddy.
Hmm. A REAL limited bandwidth Amplifier with looped feedback around the multiple stages will ney MUST be subject to those effects. I would not directly blame "feedback", but in the end, the fundamental toplology gives rise to certain problems. Adding an input bandwidth limiting filter can help of course, so in practical terms for bothy TIM and AB Crossover distortion workqrounds exist that limit the damage done by the problem, yet it still strikes me as bolting the stable doors after the horses are gone.
If we do talk about in effect "cost no objecive" designs, then why accept such compromises and mererly work on the fringes to contain the damage?
Sayonara
ALW said:
Okay, I go with that. Except, you need transistors (or Valves or FET's) in the output stage that are almost not manufacturerd and the stuff Semlab made in the earlier days for Naim was as bad as anything (to keep a topical glimpse).
So, with reasonably available devices class AB invariably leads to problems. Of course, a sufficient devotion to the worship of a given manufacturer can make such minor inconveniences go away easily, to the mind of the believer.
I will agree that in pure, unapplied theory Class A and Class AB can be made to perform identically. But once we deal with real components - sorry no such luck buddy.
ALW said:
Hmm. A REAL limited bandwidth Amplifier with looped feedback around the multiple stages will ney MUST be subject to those effects. I would not directly blame "feedback", but in the end, the fundamental toplology gives rise to certain problems. Adding an input bandwidth limiting filter can help of course, so in practical terms for bothy TIM and AB Crossover distortion workqrounds exist that limit the damage done by the problem, yet it still strikes me as bolting the stable doors after the horses are gone.
If we do talk about in effect "cost no objecive" designs, then why accept such compromises and mererly work on the fringes to contain the damage?
Sayonara
...Takes deep breath & steps into the fray
I have to give a definite NAY to the original question, I don't believe we're close but I think we're trying to turn an omlette back into raw eggs.
The best system I've ever heard still sounded exactly like a system, not like the real thing. I used to live in a unit on a busy street and when a trumpet player 4 doors down was doing his practice, even over the road noise I knew instinctively that what I was hearing was a real instrument and not a reproduced recording. If we can't do solo trumpet yet, what hope have we got with something as complex as a string quartet, let alone an orchestra or a piano?
To be sure, from time to time we get things "more right" if you will. I love the sound of some of the mid/late 60's Verve recordings done by Norman Granz. To me (remember that bit, it's important), the sound seams more real.
Don't know if this is from tube gear, ribbon mikes, less compression, shorter simpler signal paths or what, I just know that I prefer it.
Sound is a very subjective thing: I know for a fact that my wife and I both find the sound of a couple of speakers I built using Audax HM100ZO HDA midrange drivers to be the sweetest and fastest and most detailed without being fatiguing midrange that we've yet listened to. I also know for a fact that Thorsten has characterised HDA drivers as "sounding like hammered ****". On many other aspects of sound reproduction and componentry however, we appear to agree entirely. Please explain?
Additionally, critical listening (for me at least) was a learned thing. While a 16 year old, I had the oppourtunity when on student exchange in Germany to visit a number of hifi stores in Erlangen when the son in my host family was purchasing a mid - high level turntable as a Christmas present for his father. During the auditions of a number of decks I was totally unable to discern tonal differences, lowered noise floor, more background info, let alone more amorphous things such as PRaT. (This was not as a result of having hammered my hearing, my exposure to rock music was very limited growing up) Nowdays i can easily hear all these things, pick differences in cables etc and so on.
The number of different approaches taken by people in the audio industry is massive. Some favour short paths (Passlabs Zen, AudioNote DAC 5 without digital filter, S&B L/C phono equaliser), some favour only Class A, or only SE, or only triodes, or only DH triodes. Some go multiway in speakers, some hornload, some only go with single drivers, some say only circular fronthorns work. dipoles, boxes, spheres, ribbons, electrostatics, paper cones, HDA cones, carbon fibre cones, aluminium cones. And this is just at the replay end.
If our current level of understanding can't tell us what sort of resistors and caps sound best, what type of active devices sound best, what topology is best, what cables, type of speaker drivers and form of enclosures are best just on the replay end (leaving aside the vinyl, cd, DVD, SACD debate or, deity forbid!, MP3) then how can we even contemplate saying that we have even a partial grasp on the answers?
My current omlette is nice and I'm working on having it a little less overcooked but i doubt I'll ever be able to change it back into raw eggs.
Drew
I have to give a definite NAY to the original question, I don't believe we're close but I think we're trying to turn an omlette back into raw eggs.
The best system I've ever heard still sounded exactly like a system, not like the real thing. I used to live in a unit on a busy street and when a trumpet player 4 doors down was doing his practice, even over the road noise I knew instinctively that what I was hearing was a real instrument and not a reproduced recording. If we can't do solo trumpet yet, what hope have we got with something as complex as a string quartet, let alone an orchestra or a piano?
To be sure, from time to time we get things "more right" if you will. I love the sound of some of the mid/late 60's Verve recordings done by Norman Granz. To me (remember that bit, it's important), the sound seams more real.
Don't know if this is from tube gear, ribbon mikes, less compression, shorter simpler signal paths or what, I just know that I prefer it.
Sound is a very subjective thing: I know for a fact that my wife and I both find the sound of a couple of speakers I built using Audax HM100ZO HDA midrange drivers to be the sweetest and fastest and most detailed without being fatiguing midrange that we've yet listened to. I also know for a fact that Thorsten has characterised HDA drivers as "sounding like hammered ****". On many other aspects of sound reproduction and componentry however, we appear to agree entirely. Please explain?
Additionally, critical listening (for me at least) was a learned thing. While a 16 year old, I had the oppourtunity when on student exchange in Germany to visit a number of hifi stores in Erlangen when the son in my host family was purchasing a mid - high level turntable as a Christmas present for his father. During the auditions of a number of decks I was totally unable to discern tonal differences, lowered noise floor, more background info, let alone more amorphous things such as PRaT. (This was not as a result of having hammered my hearing, my exposure to rock music was very limited growing up) Nowdays i can easily hear all these things, pick differences in cables etc and so on.
The number of different approaches taken by people in the audio industry is massive. Some favour short paths (Passlabs Zen, AudioNote DAC 5 without digital filter, S&B L/C phono equaliser), some favour only Class A, or only SE, or only triodes, or only DH triodes. Some go multiway in speakers, some hornload, some only go with single drivers, some say only circular fronthorns work. dipoles, boxes, spheres, ribbons, electrostatics, paper cones, HDA cones, carbon fibre cones, aluminium cones. And this is just at the replay end.
If our current level of understanding can't tell us what sort of resistors and caps sound best, what type of active devices sound best, what topology is best, what cables, type of speaker drivers and form of enclosures are best just on the replay end (leaving aside the vinyl, cd, DVD, SACD debate or, deity forbid!, MP3) then how can we even contemplate saying that we have even a partial grasp on the answers?
My current omlette is nice and I'm working on having it a little less overcooked but i doubt I'll ever be able to change it back into raw eggs.
Drew
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.