Yes, yes, i know this has been brought up a gazillon times, but bear with me. I've been looking arround for new sinks and found some rather nice ones... as always, at an insane price. The water cooling idea came to me again after doing the math. Has anyone actually BUILT an amp using it and can tell me:
- Where to get the radiator / pump. Prices would be nice
Can they be found second hand?
- Ammount of noise generated
- Problems with leaks, water clogging?
Etc etc. Basically, what i'm looking is for encouragement (or not) to try this way. It all boils down to money; i want to build my JLH in a final form so it'll last me for a while. But i'm a studient and money is scarce...
- Where to get the radiator / pump. Prices would be nice
Can they be found second hand?- Ammount of noise generated
- Problems with leaks, water clogging?
Etc etc. Basically, what i'm looking is for encouragement (or not) to try this way. It all boils down to money; i want to build my JLH in a final form so it'll last me for a while. But i'm a studient and money is scarce...
look for the overclockers
The computer overclockers seem to be doing your advance work for you. I don't remember where, but I saw a water cooled kit rated at about 400watts for around $100 us. This one seemed to have pretty good parts and the cooling block was very well put together. So I think that it is possible to do better than that. Fishpump, heater core from a car, plastic tubing and clamps take care of most of it. Perhaps build a temp controller to turn on a fan, if needed.
I have not seen the perfect water block yet - I suspect if I had, I would have tried this by now. I think for audio we need more mounting space and other methods for mounting differing semi types.
The computer overclockers seem to be doing your advance work for you. I don't remember where, but I saw a water cooled kit rated at about 400watts for around $100 us. This one seemed to have pretty good parts and the cooling block was very well put together. So I think that it is possible to do better than that. Fishpump, heater core from a car, plastic tubing and clamps take care of most of it. Perhaps build a temp controller to turn on a fan, if needed.
I have not seen the perfect water block yet - I suspect if I had, I would have tried this by now. I think for audio we need more mounting space and other methods for mounting differing semi types.
Heat pipes appeal to me more than active water cooling.
http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe1.html
This gentleman does excellent work, but he scares me. Water cooling a switching power supply:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/content.asp?request=liquidenermax550w
http://www.benchtest.com/heat_pipe1.html
This gentleman does excellent work, but he scares me. Water cooling a switching power supply:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/content.asp?request=liquidenermax550w
Heat pipes are a neat idea but imho they're even a bigger hassle than wc blocks. My idea was to shape an aluminum block to route water through it and hold all the devices, using a cheap fishpump and a surplus radiator (car ones are very very cheap, specially for old models, but the thing is to find something useable, like, say 20x20cm)... dunno, i figured someone might have already tried
I've checked the overclocking scene too; the thing is that those things are either impossible to find here or so overpriced that's no good either.
I've checked the overclocking scene too; the thing is that those things are either impossible to find here or so overpriced that's no good either.
Grey Rollins runs his Aleph water cooled. I think the title of the thread was Water Cooled Aleph. He came up with a cheap and good way to mount the output devices - a 1/8" thick strip of copper with a piece of copper pipe soldered along one edge, leaving the face for mounting the transistors. Most aquarium pumps are air not water? The are surplus water pumps around. at the usual surplus sites
Transmission fluid coolers and heater cores from cars are the cheapest and most available radiators. Grey didn't even use a fan
on hte radiator. His was from a house heat pump. No problem with algae or corrosion despite lots of naysayers claiming there would be a problem.
Transmission fluid coolers and heater cores from cars are the cheapest and most available radiators. Grey didn't even use a fan
on hte radiator. His was from a house heat pump. No problem with algae or corrosion despite lots of naysayers claiming there would be a problem.
Humm....
Yeah a water block wouldn't be too hard, you just need a mill and drill press...
If you want to do a fab instead, brazing would really be better.. I don't think you need brass, with something that big it would be hard to get it hot enough anyway... phos copper I hear melts lower so would probably be great.
Dang.. now I feel like building something... anyone want cast aluminum watercoolers?
Tim
Yeah a water block wouldn't be too hard, you just need a mill and drill press...
If you want to do a fab instead, brazing would really be better.. I don't think you need brass, with something that big it would be hard to get it hot enough anyway... phos copper I hear melts lower so would probably be great.
Dang.. now I feel like building something... anyone want cast aluminum watercoolers?
Tim
I have some experience with watercooling; but only on computers, never tested on an amp
It works really good, that's for sure!
But keep one thing in mind: watercooling isn't magic, it doesn't "eat" the heat. It's only a way to transport this heat from the waterblock, to another point (the radiator) that has to evacuate all the heat from the waterblock.
That's usefull when you haven't the place to put a big heatsink directly on your heat source (like a computer CPU in a computer box)
But with amps, we have much more place to put big radiators directly on the case, so watercooling is not so usefull.
Except if you live in sibery ant that you want to place your 5.1 Aleph2's radiator out of the window
It works really good, that's for sure!
But keep one thing in mind: watercooling isn't magic, it doesn't "eat" the heat. It's only a way to transport this heat from the waterblock, to another point (the radiator) that has to evacuate all the heat from the waterblock.
That's usefull when you haven't the place to put a big heatsink directly on your heat source (like a computer CPU in a computer box)
But with amps, we have much more place to put big radiators directly on the case, so watercooling is not so usefull.
Except if you live in sibery ant that you want to place your 5.1 Aleph2's radiator out of the window
Perhaps a real stupid idea, but in stead of using a (car) radiator would it be an option to transfer the heat to your excisting heating system from the house.
For a car radiator you need a vent to effectively transfer the heat to the air. Using the excisting home heating system you would have a massive cooling area, with plenty of water and ofcourse i pump is present to pump it around. So the system I see is to have a small watercooled block, which transfers its heat to a larger block attached to the home heating system.
Or perhaps an even simpler idea is to mount the transistor to a slab of aluminium, which in turn is directly mounted on one of the heaters.
Probably both ideas don't work, but at least the former idea should be relatively easy (and cheep) to try.
O and please shoot some holes in my idea, because everytime i see these watercooling things on the OC-forums i wonder why 'my idea' is not applied.
emiel
ps1) To be clear i have attached i picture of the kind of heaters I mean for a home heating system (it will not work with these hot air systems or others).
ps2) Ofcourse the heat transfer from the cooling block to the home heater is not optimal (especially if they are painted), but this can be optimized
For a car radiator you need a vent to effectively transfer the heat to the air. Using the excisting home heating system you would have a massive cooling area, with plenty of water and ofcourse i pump is present to pump it around. So the system I see is to have a small watercooled block, which transfers its heat to a larger block attached to the home heating system.
Or perhaps an even simpler idea is to mount the transistor to a slab of aluminium, which in turn is directly mounted on one of the heaters.
Probably both ideas don't work, but at least the former idea should be relatively easy (and cheep) to try.
O and please shoot some holes in my idea, because everytime i see these watercooling things on the OC-forums i wonder why 'my idea' is not applied.
emiel
ps1) To be clear i have attached i picture of the kind of heaters I mean for a home heating system (it will not work with these hot air systems or others).
ps2) Ofcourse the heat transfer from the cooling block to the home heater is not optimal (especially if they are painted), but this can be optimized
Attachments
EDM,
Your idea would work if the heating system isn't being used for heating. If it is heating, the temperature of the heater will be about the same as the waterblock I think,so no heat transfer.
We call the thing mounted on the wall a radiator also (the same word as the one in a car)
So, if you found another house radiator and hooked just it to your amp water block then you have an excellent cooling system for your amp that matches your house heating. You probably would need a (small) electric pump to move the water though.
Your idea would work if the heating system isn't being used for heating. If it is heating, the temperature of the heater will be about the same as the waterblock I think,so no heat transfer.
We call the thing mounted on the wall a radiator also (the same word as the one in a car)
So, if you found another house radiator and hooked just it to your amp water block then you have an excellent cooling system for your amp that matches your house heating. You probably would need a (small) electric pump to move the water though.
Variac,
Thanks for the termology, it was already my guess that it would also be called a radiator, but perhaps abroad other ways of heating are more popular. So for absolute clarity the picture (a picture tells.... )
But now for your remark that it would not work if you are heating... Well i don't know how warm you like your house, but I like it not warmer then 18 degrees C. So I would be most suprised that the wall radiator would be hotter then the devices to be cooled, so perhaps efficiency should be worse but i envision it would still work, no? And basically you are helping the central heating so probably that will works in your advantage, since the thermostat will shutdown the main heating device sooner...
But what about the second idea no waterblock no additional pump, just hook it up directly to a pre-excisting radiotor. The pump of the central heater will take care of the water flow (at least mine is pumping even though it's not heating) and of you go..
Emiel
Thanks for the termology, it was already my guess that it would also be called a radiator, but perhaps abroad other ways of heating are more popular. So for absolute clarity the picture (a picture tells.... )
But now for your remark that it would not work if you are heating... Well i don't know how warm you like your house, but I like it not warmer then 18 degrees C. So I would be most suprised that the wall radiator would be hotter then the devices to be cooled, so perhaps efficiency should be worse but i envision it would still work, no? And basically you are helping the central heating so probably that will works in your advantage, since the thermostat will shutdown the main heating device sooner...
But what about the second idea no waterblock no additional pump, just hook it up directly to a pre-excisting radiotor. The pump of the central heater will take care of the water flow (at least mine is pumping even though it's not heating) and of you go..
Emiel
Ok, here's a few things i've been investigating... apparently the best bet for cheap radiator blocks are bike and auto shops. A regular bike radiator is quite compact (i'm aiming at no more than 25x25 cm, or near that) and some small cars use small ones too. It's quite impossible to get data on these, but given i'm dissipating "only" 200w continuous, i can live with that.
The pumps can be found for cheap, and you gotta look for filtering pumps for fish tanks. These are small and can move ridiculous amounts of water (100 gallons per hour!), though i'd like to know how noisy can they get.
Seems watercooling is a viable option... grollins, want to add something here?
The pumps can be found for cheap, and you gotta look for filtering pumps for fish tanks. These are small and can move ridiculous amounts of water (100 gallons per hour!), though i'd like to know how noisy can they get.
Seems watercooling is a viable option... grollins, want to add something here?
Lisandro_P how do you plan to rely on unforced radition to extract the heat from the radiotor?
I also posted the wall radiotor idea on a OC (overclocking) forum and the best thing they came up with was that the temperature of the water in the winter was 70-85 degrees C, which would be not so good. But that temperature range strikes me to be very high, since if the Pass temperature nomenclature is applied and the fact that in winter times i can leave my hand on the radiotor for a long time I would guess the temperature would be below 45 deg C.
I also posted the wall radiotor idea on a OC (overclocking) forum and the best thing they came up with was that the temperature of the water in the winter was 70-85 degrees C, which would be not so good. But that temperature range strikes me to be very high, since if the Pass temperature nomenclature is applied and the fact that in winter times i can leave my hand on the radiotor for a long time I would guess the temperature would be below 45 deg C.
A second hand car heater from an unpopular model would cost about next to nothing. What's more, some of them have the fan and heater core together as a single item with a plastic housing to contain and direct the airflow. With enough airflow and water temperature these things can dump as much as 5kW, but that's with the water inlet temp at about 85-90 deg C, but still there would be heaps of capacity at a lower water inlet temp for any reasonable amplifier.
Also, put some of that green car radiator stuff in the water to stop corrosion because you have brass, copper & maybe aluminium together with the water all trying to be a battery and the small dc currents will eventually eat holes in the metal.
Also, put some of that green car radiator stuff in the water to stop corrosion because you have brass, copper & maybe aluminium together with the water all trying to be a battery and the small dc currents will eventually eat holes in the metal.
a power steering cooler is the best size for that application or a transmission cooler under 50 bucks new....also a small electric fuel pump with inline filter would circulate nice...once again very cheap new.....and a comment to another post... antifreeze (green stuff) serves more than to prevent corrosion in a system with the right mixture 60/40 it raises the boiling point of the solution beyond 160F of water
I'm planning *not* to use a fan on the radiator. Yes, it won't work as well, but again, 200w is "low" for the watercooling standarts. The thing with radiators is that they have an lot of surface area, but crammed all together. Still, i beleive any small motor radiator could handle that well.
My original idea was to have the amp in a box, with the radiator on
the top (open, but covered by the side panels), and the guts of the amp / water pump system accesible via the side panels.That would keep system well enclosed (quiet!) and easy on the eyes too. A diode on the cooling block would be used to sense temperature; my amp uses a remote on switch so i'd just need to modify that part to be absolutely safe that the amp wouldn't die in case the pump decides to stop working.
My original idea was to have the amp in a box, with the radiator on
the top (open, but covered by the side panels), and the guts of the amp / water pump system accesible via the side panels.That would keep system well enclosed (quiet!) and easy on the eyes too. A diode on the cooling block would be used to sense temperature; my amp uses a remote on switch so i'd just need to modify that part to be absolutely safe that the amp wouldn't die in case the pump decides to stop working.
water cooling
heres a idea on flow control flow meter. sounds like a good idea
should work i paid $200 for my cooler from bigfootcomputers
and it works great for computers so i cant see it not working for
audio
http://www.hut.fi/~kukkonen/watercooler/watercooler.html
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com
this kit
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Mer...t&Product_Code=4500WKIT&Category_Code=0510.11
heres a idea on flow control flow meter. sounds like a good idea
should work i paid $200 for my cooler from bigfootcomputers
and it works great for computers so i cant see it not working for
audio
http://www.hut.fi/~kukkonen/watercooler/watercooler.html
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com
this kit
http://www.bigfootcomputers.com/Mer...t&Product_Code=4500WKIT&Category_Code=0510.11
Attachments
I've been reading his postings about the watercooled amp, lots of interesting info there.
Well, for 200 watts you could probably use just a large tin can > 10 litres, or even a 20 litre drum. The time to heat that much water would probably be way longer than any normal listening session and besides, it has quite a large surface area too so the temp would actually quit rising after a certain point. And free too probably.Lisandro_P said:
Really, the only part that concerns me at all is the semi mounting block. Physics majors can jump in here at any time. It will take a certain amount of surface area to transfer the heat so that they are not "hotspots" around the semi's. So much mass of copper to pull from the pad, then enough of that mass of copper connected to the surface of water so that water that starts out at say 20c (room) can keep the semi at no more than 60c?
I know that somewhere in this DIY group there are folks who do this for a living.
I know that somewhere in this DIY group there are folks who do this for a living.
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