I am always ranting about how marketing drives audio and that there is no relationship between price and quality. That beauty and brand are the only features of worth in a modern piece of audio equipment.
Read this if you doubt me
Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Read this if you doubt me
Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics
I agree that marketing drives the audio industry along with many other industries. But I do think, among the reputable companies (such as your own), that price and quality do have a minor relationship. That is meant as a compliment...forgive me if it sounds otherwise.
It can be argued that badge engineering was one of the major downfalls of the American auto industry.
The same practices can be observed in many other industries as well...clothing, cosmetics, and sadly pharmaceuticals.
Your argument is exactly why I have started building my own stuff whenever possible and then buying used as a second option.
It can be argued that badge engineering was one of the major downfalls of the American auto industry.
The same practices can be observed in many other industries as well...clothing, cosmetics, and sadly pharmaceuticals.
Your argument is exactly why I have started building my own stuff whenever possible and then buying used as a second option.
I have Guess sneakers that i paid $110 for at ShoeMania. They are cream color leather. When i got home i went to check the prices online and they were only $54 in brown color ( which i didn't like ). So i kept my cream ones.
A few months later i saw the exact same shoe in BROWN color at Nordstrom only this time it was "Gucci" not "Guess" ( using a nearly identical pattern of "G" for the design ) and guess what - it was $400.
So the same shoe sells for $50 and $400 depending on whether it is labelled as "Guess" or "Gucci". I could care less what they think G stands for. As far as i am concerned G stands for George ( my name ).
why should it be any different for high end audio ?
also i can bet that it will be far from the worst shoe you can get for $400 ...
A few months later i saw the exact same shoe in BROWN color at Nordstrom only this time it was "Gucci" not "Guess" ( using a nearly identical pattern of "G" for the design ) and guess what - it was $400.
So the same shoe sells for $50 and $400 depending on whether it is labelled as "Guess" or "Gucci". I could care less what they think G stands for. As far as i am concerned G stands for George ( my name ).
why should it be any different for high end audio ?
also i can bet that it will be far from the worst shoe you can get for $400 ...
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To start, I don't think there's a problem with taking something and making it either "prettier" or using higher-quality materials and charging a premium. Some people have to keep these boxes visible in the room. A separate question is whether Lexicon actually improved the appearance of the BDP-83. From pictures, I would say "no."
That's funny on one level, because it's from one of the (few) places in audio one wouldn't necessarily expect it. Though I think they did something similar with Bryston amps a while ago. I remember thinking that was odd because, after all, Lexicon should have access to perfectly good amp boards from corporate sibling Crown, and they're all commodity parts anyway.
It's hopeful on another level, because it makes clear that these kinds of electronics - which is to say, everything that's not "speaker" or "room" or "recording" - are commodity parts. Smart people already knew that, but these types of tricks (and articles exposing them!) might make the functionally deaf start listening a little more critically.
But the only unfortunate thing there is that if one wants a player to play SACDs, DVD-As, and Blu-Rays one needs to spend $500. My old Samsung DVD player cost more like $70 in 2005 or so and did everything except play Blu-Rays. (It even scored "no difference" against a $3k+ Meridian CD player in a blind test!) That said, I do like my BDP-83, if only because it loads disks much more quickly than friends' cheaper Blu-Ray players.
That's a little bit different. What probably happened there is the opposite of the Oppo-Lexicon connection: Gucci showed a shoe on a runway, and Guess copied it. (It would, admittedly, be funny if Gucci took someone else's shoe and built an overshoe around it.) In apparel, most of the suburban mall stuff is knockoffs of "designer" stuff. (Uniqlo is a rare exception, but that's because they employ one of the best designers of our time, Jil Sander.) Gucci's not especially known for their quality any longer - though at one time they were better - so there's no guarantee the $400 Gucci sneaker will be better in materials or workmanship than the $50 Guess one.
They're both basically commodity parts. For my money, the only nontechnical "premium" sneakers worth the asking price are Reiter Sports from the Viennese cobbler Ludwig Reiter, because of the quality of the materials Reiter uses for their sneakers. Well, Hermes makes some very nice sneakers too - I normally hate logos, but "H" corresponds to the first letter of my last name - but for me to spend that kind of money on a shoe it better be Goodyear welted and leather soled. And possibly made of shell cordovan instead of calfskin.
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On the one hand there is something morally wrong with taking a cheap player, putting it in a fancy box and charging a lot of money for it. It says "we are happy to pretend to be something we are not, and we are happy to rip-off our customers, and we do not care about them".
On the other hand, if people are stupid enough to buy based on brand loyalty and preconception then I can understand marketing men taking their money.
Personally, if I found that a company that I though was solid was actually ripping me off I would consider it a breach of trust and never give them my money again.
On the other hand, if people are stupid enough to buy based on brand loyalty and preconception then I can understand marketing men taking their money.
Personally, if I found that a company that I though was solid was actually ripping me off I would consider it a breach of trust and never give them my money again.
Price and quality should go hand in hand, otherwise "value" engineering is not being utilized. I was appalled some years back at the costs of decent "hi-end" speakers. Most weren't any good and good ones were ridiculously priced. There was no "value" in the offerings.
I agree that the marketing people are probably only doing what they are taught to do in a market that is driven by brand and image. The sooner this kind of thing comes to light, the sooner the consumer will refuse to be duped by this kind of marketing. They only get away with it because they can!
It's nearly $3000 for a case that looks not much different, let alone significantly better and a different label. You get nothing for your extra hard earned $ except 'cache'.
The Ayre DX5 is similarly a modified Oppo, but I find many of the listed differences dubious in real benefit, so much of the same feeling applies vis the Lexicon. It's also $10k retail.
This why people will buy stuff like this. Most people don't have the gear or knowledge or even the access to the two separate pieces to do the above comparo and tests to find out the basic facts of the situation.
Ditto; I previously thought Lexicon was a good brand based upon the use of their pro gear and published research, but an 'I wonder' will hang over all their products for me now.
Aren't those pseudonyms for experience? If a manufacturer's product provided consistent performance and value in the past it's hardly stupid to stick with them. What would be the option? Magazine/web reviews? Now if after having been taken you keep going back that's a different matter. Sony audio is a great example of a company transitioning from decently engineered and manufactured commodity products to accounting driven junk.
I have a customer who paid a few hundred dollars for a small attachment to change the input impedance of his Phono stage. When he opened up the module, he was shocked to find there are only a few fancy resistors inside. I doubt those resistors cost even $5. And this is a very reputable, High-End European brand.
Anything 'custom' costs money. This is normal, as the few pieces made, still have to be designed, parts ordered, sometimes a small board might be necessary, wired, and good connectors cost money. Think about it, yourself. Think about making something that you might make from this website. Give yourself $20/hr for your time, Add up your time and materials, from start to finish. Just do it, a time or two, and the complaints will diminish, when you understand the efforts of others.
Hi John
Sorry if I've given the wrong impression. The module is not custom made. They are "Off the Shelf" items.
I do agree that if a buyer is to have something specially made, it is bound to be costly because he is paying for professional services. Cost of components in this instance is immaterial.
I am well aware of the value of professional services. Thirty years ago, when I was shooting professionally in the advertising industry, I charge between $3,000 - $5,000 per picture. This does not include support services like makeup artist, models, etc. Takes me about 4 hours to finish the shoot. Total film and development cost is less than $200. I've never had a single complaint that I'm ripping off any customers. Needless to say, I must be able to deliver otherwise, that's the last time I'll ever see the art director again. In the advertising industry, there is no room for failures.
Regards
Mike
Sorry if I've given the wrong impression. The module is not custom made. They are "Off the Shelf" items.
I do agree that if a buyer is to have something specially made, it is bound to be costly because he is paying for professional services. Cost of components in this instance is immaterial.
I am well aware of the value of professional services. Thirty years ago, when I was shooting professionally in the advertising industry, I charge between $3,000 - $5,000 per picture. This does not include support services like makeup artist, models, etc. Takes me about 4 hours to finish the shoot. Total film and development cost is less than $200. I've never had a single complaint that I'm ripping off any customers. Needless to say, I must be able to deliver otherwise, that's the last time I'll ever see the art director again. In the advertising industry, there is no room for failures.
Regards
Mike
Branding is about a "brand promise". What is that promise in the specific case here? "You can be assurded to pay the highest conceivable price for the exact same thing as anywhere else." If that's not it, then they didn't keep their promise and that brand is no longer reliable - its gone - broken promise. Sony is a good example. I used to swear by their stuff. Now I just swear at it - except I don't own any anymore. I think that Harman has become a fire-sale on brands. Milk it for all its worth now because tomorrow it won't be worth anything. If that's the thought, then I agree. I see all these audio brands becoming commodities which can no longer bring in any price premiums. The price for milking the maketplace for as long as they have.
For the Lexicon case (no pun intended 
)? Absolutely. That's what happens when brand value is treated as a product or commodity for trade. I disagree it's universal though. If what you want, to pick a neutral example, is a Bryston, as far as I know going to that particular well any time since I bought one in the mid-Seventies will get you a real Bryston.
Agreed on Harman, what they did to Studer is a disgrace.
)? Absolutely. That's what happens when brand value is treated as a product or commodity for trade. I disagree it's universal though. If what you want, to pick a neutral example, is a Bryston, as far as I know going to that particular well any time since I bought one in the mid-Seventies will get you a real Bryston. Agreed on Harman, what they did to Studer is a disgrace.
For the Lexicon case (no pun intended
Agreed on Harman, what they did to Studer is a disgrace.
There will be good examples and bad. I don't see a lot of examples of good "value" in hi-end audio. A few companies who hold high quality, but almost universally at a premium price. There don't seem to be too manys "Honda's of Audio".
I'm certainly not justifying the price of Oppicon Blu-Ray player. I wouldn't pay it. It was annoying enough to have to spend 500 for the Oppo to get the basic functionality I wanted - ability to play DVD-As, SACDs, and Blu-Rays from one box, with a single-digitial-wire connection to my receiver - when I don't think it should cost that much! But in principle, I don't have a problem with someone charging $3000 or whatever they want to charge for a case replacement. As long as there's enough transparency about it so that knowledgeable buyers can find out the truth of the matter. (Then again, let's face it, no knowledgeable audio equipment buyer is going to be spending four figures on a transport unless one counts a new Mac Pro or something like that as a "transport.") If gullible people get taken, well, if someone's going to spent that much money and not even run a cursory google search for the thing, let them part the fool from her/his money.
I would analogize it to a watch movement that costs a in case x, a*b% in case y, and 30*a in case z. Unless you're a die-hard watch fanatic the actual movement inside isn't that important. What you care about is that it looks good on your wrist and maybe just maybe that it impresses the "right" people.
Or maybe you'll take a closer look at much less expensive Harman/Kardon stuff. Maybe some of that is inside those new Lexicon cases.
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Here is a book that tells how its done.
All Marketers Are Liars: The Power of Telling Authentic Stories in a Low-Trust World
Amazon.com: All Marketers Are Liars: The Power of Telling Authentic Stories in a Low-Trust World (9781591841005): Seth Godin: Books
Here is a book review:
http://www.overclockers.com/all-marketers-are-liars/
Really amazing.
Doug
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