in the semiconductor setting, burning in is to let chips fail in the ovens and get rejected during testing rather than to fail at the hands of the costumer later......
that is why i find comments by end users that they have not yet finished 100 hours of burning in downright hilarious.....did they expect their gears to breakdown after? i hope not....
that is why i find comments by end users that they have not yet finished 100 hours of burning in downright hilarious.....did they expect their gears to breakdown after? i hope not....
FWIW... I'm an older gent and I remember back in the '70's when major (well repssected) audio reviewers "burned in" components for a short period before testing for specs.
It should be noted that this was duing the begining of the widerspred use of ICs in audio
Soon, the PC became widespread and with it, came the overclockers .
I was a avid overclocker back then.
One thing we all learned was that you had to overclock in small increrments to maintain stability. One theory is that electrons can "beat a path" through the CPU/ICs increasing stability.
Also, it it was recomended for most audio electronice to be "burned in" a bit to reveal any potential infant mortality issues . This is something I still think is prudent.
So, do all ICs need to be "burned in? Maby..... maby not .
The point is that I suspect that many misguided, self appointed audio" experts" took a bit of knowledge and ran with with it the wrong direction.
They ran so far out of sight of the original point(s) that they now want to burn in wires and cables etc. .
It should be noted that this was duing the begining of the widerspred use of ICs in audio
Soon, the PC became widespread and with it, came the overclockers .
I was a avid overclocker back then.
One thing we all learned was that you had to overclock in small increrments to maintain stability. One theory is that electrons can "beat a path" through the CPU/ICs increasing stability.
Also, it it was recomended for most audio electronice to be "burned in" a bit to reveal any potential infant mortality issues . This is something I still think is prudent.
So, do all ICs need to be "burned in? Maby..... maby not .
The point is that I suspect that many misguided, self appointed audio" experts" took a bit of knowledge and ran with with it the wrong direction.
They ran so far out of sight of the original point(s) that they now want to burn in wires and cables etc. .
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Not in the last 50 years by any company that knows what they are doing. By applying very strict process control they have a much bettter idea of their quality than the old test/reject , or what we called AQL (Acceptable Quality Level) Most manufactured goods are not tested. By doing process control, you catch and correct drift in the process before you ever make a bad part. All hail the late Edwards Deming.
preconditioning or pre-heating is the correct term, the FTC mandated a 1hour at 1/3 full power preconditioning or pre-heating of claimed power spec before testing is done on the amplifier......
burning-in is very much a part of ic manufacturing process...and i know for a fact that AMD do a 100% testing of all their parts before these ic's are tested, marked, packed and shipped to costumers.....
Would the panel regard it as unsporting of me to point out what must surely be the obvious?
Namely that speaker cable burn-in is just another part of the hoodoo marketing process of junk.
If you've actually managed to spend 10k on speaker cables, and you spend 100 hours burning them in, maybe that's just enough time to convince yourself that you're not a complete idiot.
Though at $100 an hour, you might be better spending the money on therapy to help you avoid being such an idiot.
Namely that speaker cable burn-in is just another part of the hoodoo marketing process of junk.
If you've actually managed to spend 10k on speaker cables, and you spend 100 hours burning them in, maybe that's just enough time to convince yourself that you're not a complete idiot.
Though at $100 an hour, you might be better spending the money on therapy to help you avoid being such an idiot.
One would think that by now even the dumbest objectivist would have gleaned a bit about the mechanics of buying a cable. Especially an expensive one. Most (all?) come with home trials, 30-day money back guarantees and certainly the option to recoup most of one's investment on Agon. Seems to be a much safer process compared to buying a car.
Just my thoughts,
I think everyone should try making their own cables..listen to the difference.
You can make cables with different sounds..the mix of dielectric and type of conductor/mix of stranded soild, core plated core, or any mix of each type including solder types and construction etc (it goes on).
Trying conductors like nickle, silver (different sizes and grades), OFC, LCOFC, silver Plated, or stranded types...try using plaits, twisted pair, groups of twisted pair plaited... Just be carefull you don't make an amplifier unstable. Its probably easier to make a cable sound bright or dull when playing around..and you get much more fun..I think regards cable prices there is a cut off point when quality ends and ego can take over..you can learn a lot more by (playing)..never mind tests just try different things..because that is what you are doing when you put a bought cable on your equipment..
I don't think money is realy the answer...OK its hard to get (create) welded connectors (non magnetic) however its worth the time and the fun element to get to a point where you think you are altering the frequency response of the cable...that will realy do your noggin in..
Some things to think about...you are driving current into very low ohms..what kind of effects can you get...Volt drop?..magnetic effects?...induction?.just a few for fun. (again it goes on) what happens if you coil spare cable? (nothing right) Try or should I say don't try using a JOJO cable on full power still coiled up..Ok its mains..the effects are still induction coil based..
Do I think burn in has an effect..yes..a cable is a capacitor..and yes it seems to need music or variable frequency and current to do it..just the same as a capacitor (OK capaciors dont burn in)..now if you could make one with polycarbonate that would be interesting because it seems to not age the same...oxidisation of the outside of the conductor also seems to have an effect (is this altered by burn in?)..only my thoughts..you need to experiment to see..try letting copper go green outside then make a cable out of it..just be carfull not to create stupid mistakes or shorts..play and DIY..it costs less and is more interesting..Cable alchemy.
Regards bending cables its just that the bend if to sharp can change the cross section or crack the conductor and could create a hot spot on full current..(only on high power installations not audio)..correction possibly high current audio
Regards
M. Gregg
I think everyone should try making their own cables..listen to the difference.
You can make cables with different sounds..the mix of dielectric and type of conductor/mix of stranded soild, core plated core, or any mix of each type including solder types and construction etc (it goes on).
Trying conductors like nickle, silver (different sizes and grades), OFC, LCOFC, silver Plated, or stranded types...try using plaits, twisted pair, groups of twisted pair plaited... Just be carefull you don't make an amplifier unstable. Its probably easier to make a cable sound bright or dull when playing around..and you get much more fun..I think regards cable prices there is a cut off point when quality ends and ego can take over..you can learn a lot more by (playing)..never mind tests just try different things..because that is what you are doing when you put a bought cable on your equipment..
I don't think money is realy the answer...OK its hard to get (create) welded connectors (non magnetic) however its worth the time and the fun element to get to a point where you think you are altering the frequency response of the cable...that will realy do your noggin in..
Some things to think about...you are driving current into very low ohms..what kind of effects can you get...Volt drop?..magnetic effects?...induction?.just a few for fun. (again it goes on) what happens if you coil spare cable? (nothing right) Try or should I say don't try using a JOJO cable on full power still coiled up..Ok its mains..the effects are still induction coil based..
Do I think burn in has an effect..yes..a cable is a capacitor..and yes it seems to need music or variable frequency and current to do it..just the same as a capacitor (OK capaciors dont burn in)..now if you could make one with polycarbonate that would be interesting because it seems to not age the same...oxidisation of the outside of the conductor also seems to have an effect (is this altered by burn in?)..only my thoughts..you need to experiment to see..try letting copper go green outside then make a cable out of it..just be carfull not to create stupid mistakes or shorts..play and DIY..it costs less and is more interesting..Cable alchemy.
Regards bending cables its just that the bend if to sharp can change the cross section or crack the conductor and could create a hot spot on full current..(only on high power installations not audio)..correction possibly high current audio
Regards
M. Gregg
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"Beat a path through" Made my morning. In a PC, there are lots of things that can change with time and temperature. Everything from aluminum migration on the die, to cap reforming. ( see all those Z5U's on the board? )
There are two camps. I doubt they will ever see eye to eye. Those who believe in mysticism, and those who believe in physics. This divide is not limited to speaker cables, but to a wide variety of topics, many of which are off limits in our friendly forum. A funny thing about humanity is we are in one camp or the other on a subject by subject basis.
I believe in physics. I also believe in my hearing. When I hear a difference, I want to discover why. I spent the last year trying to understand why amplifiers sound different on my speakers. It took a lot of study and testing, but I now understand the differences in the transfer function as a result on the method of compensation and why it can mask certain issues in lessor speakers.
Back in the 70's when this cable craze was invented, my friends and I, one of whom was a former designer of wire, did a lot of listening and measuring. We found that yes, some cables are so bad, they can damage the sound. I was having an interference problem and wound up running Kimber 4TC but I could not say for certain it sounded any better that zip cord. I believe both of the others wound up with the original Monster 11 Ga zip as it seemed to have nothing wrong with it. ( none of us had subs in those days) 3 of my 4 systems have 16 ga zip cord. If I had an extra $100 to spend, it would go for better tweeters or crossover components. As I already did that, it goes for more music.
Want to make a $16 MASSIVE difference in sound? Buy the remastered version of Sgt. Pepper instead of the original CD. If you need to tell your "boss" that why you have to listen to the stereo for 100 hours is "burning in" something and she buys it, all the better. You get 100 hours to enjoy your music.
There are two camps. I doubt they will ever see eye to eye. Those who believe in mysticism, and those who believe in physics. This divide is not limited to speaker cables, but to a wide variety of topics, many of which are off limits in our friendly forum. A funny thing about humanity is we are in one camp or the other on a subject by subject basis.
I believe in physics. I also believe in my hearing. When I hear a difference, I want to discover why. I spent the last year trying to understand why amplifiers sound different on my speakers. It took a lot of study and testing, but I now understand the differences in the transfer function as a result on the method of compensation and why it can mask certain issues in lessor speakers.
Back in the 70's when this cable craze was invented, my friends and I, one of whom was a former designer of wire, did a lot of listening and measuring. We found that yes, some cables are so bad, they can damage the sound. I was having an interference problem and wound up running Kimber 4TC but I could not say for certain it sounded any better that zip cord. I believe both of the others wound up with the original Monster 11 Ga zip as it seemed to have nothing wrong with it. ( none of us had subs in those days) 3 of my 4 systems have 16 ga zip cord. If I had an extra $100 to spend, it would go for better tweeters or crossover components. As I already did that, it goes for more music.
Want to make a $16 MASSIVE difference in sound? Buy the remastered version of Sgt. Pepper instead of the original CD. If you need to tell your "boss" that why you have to listen to the stereo for 100 hours is "burning in" something and she buys it, all the better. You get 100 hours to enjoy your music.
Burn in testing is to test a product no other reason...
As to cables there are numerous equations relating to signal trasmission (a PCB trace is a cable), and numerous discussion on various effect that may or may not be involved. Skin affect, is one that comes to mind, no effect at audio frequencies.
As to burn in for any other purpose, no, its to test products work at the specified temp ranges the components are designed for. Consumer products only batch testing is done, as you go up the reliability ladder you get a bigger percentage of testing till for life critical every product is tested 100% because failure in the field could kill people.
I dont listen to cables I listen to transducers.Electrons dont travel through cables very far, and not very fast, in signal transmission an electron travels a few centimeters at a lazy 84mm per hour so they aint gonna burn tracts through anything, and with ac signles they just joggle back and forth so the same electrions will be in your cable from know till the end of time. Look up how signals tranfer and drift velocity.
Agree with tvrgeek, bad cables or any interconnect can and does have an effect on signal integrity, this applies to PCB layout, probably more than it does cables. Do some high speed digital or RF layout and see how easy it is to bugger up the signal, but there is no mystisism to it just boring(but reliable) physics.
As to cables there are numerous equations relating to signal trasmission (a PCB trace is a cable), and numerous discussion on various effect that may or may not be involved. Skin affect, is one that comes to mind, no effect at audio frequencies.
As to burn in for any other purpose, no, its to test products work at the specified temp ranges the components are designed for. Consumer products only batch testing is done, as you go up the reliability ladder you get a bigger percentage of testing till for life critical every product is tested 100% because failure in the field could kill people.
I dont listen to cables I listen to transducers.Electrons dont travel through cables very far, and not very fast, in signal transmission an electron travels a few centimeters at a lazy 84mm per hour so they aint gonna burn tracts through anything, and with ac signles they just joggle back and forth so the same electrions will be in your cable from know till the end of time. Look up how signals tranfer and drift velocity.
Agree with tvrgeek, bad cables or any interconnect can and does have an effect on signal integrity, this applies to PCB layout, probably more than it does cables. Do some high speed digital or RF layout and see how easy it is to bugger up the signal, but there is no mystisism to it just boring(but reliable) physics.
I recently was talking to someone about a nice piece of industrial design I was working on . It will cost £600 and will be I suspect as good as this planet has every seen . It is priced to the penny and sold in a simple black box . It is cheaper and better than trying to source the components . I doubt it will sell in great quantities . I might get a cheap holiday out of it each year and that's good enough for me . Whilst discussing it I was shown a cable costing £1500 . I was very dismissive . " Problem is Nige we will sell tons of it and no one will say anything about the price " . He will sell my item as a favour to me . It only came about because I could not buy one for a friend .
The customers are to blame .
I use 0.6 mm solid core , it works . Maplin have it as bell wire . DNM also .
Hey Ho .
The customers are to blame .
I use 0.6 mm solid core , it works . Maplin have it as bell wire . DNM also .
Hey Ho .
A minor point: there's no such thing as "an" electron that you can label as the "same" one that was there last time you looked. That's one of the weirdnesses of QM that engineers generally don't have to worry about.
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