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Old 23rd December 2009, 03:36 AM   #41
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And rather than teach you to read, I'll just refer you to the last line of the post.

Reality is, I'm not in any position to study the physics in any meaningful way. You've had 40 years of it and in a discussion (or as you seem to prefer, diatribe) could knock me into a cocked hat. My background forces me to consider human rather than electrical factors are at play, so thats what I do.

All I really ask is a coherent and abridged outline of the relevant considerations and current state of understanding that is not veiled in cryptic references to splendid lunches, govt secrets or the Grateful Dead.

Not too much to ask of a man with your experience and ability surely.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 03:54 AM   #42
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Not at all, I have designed audio equipment for 40 years. However, if you cannot read a fairly easy text on "Electrical conduction in metals and alloys" then perhaps you should not form a definite opinion of those who have studied the subject to at least that degree, and have found subjectively, that there appears to be something to break-in of wires, and even entire amps and preamps. At least, we take it into account as design professionals.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 08:23 AM   #43
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aaaaah, subjectively. So you don't have anything then.

Again, you refer to some as yet unreferenced text as if I am not willing to or cannot read it. And I'm the one who has formed a definite opinion on others?

Quit ******* around John - your pseudo-intellectual games are tiresome. The purpose of this sort of forum is the sharing of ideas, not the reinforcement of your own egotistical persona. So, again, a precis of the ideas in the text would be helpful, along with an author and/or publisher.

Or stick with designing and lunching. You are of less than no assistance here if this supercilious approach is your whole and only shtick.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 09:58 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
If you won't study physics, then maybe you should leave the question alone, because you prefer to live in ignorance.
I did study physics, specifically the physics of conductive materials, and that's why it's evident that this is a total crock. Some actual EVIDENCE of your remarkable assertions might go a long way. Certainly better than just flinging insults.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 11:44 AM   #45
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Actually if you scaled Black's equation for electromigration to speaker wires burn in might take eons.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 12:05 PM   #46
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
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I studied engineering (mechanical) and from my materials science courses I know that the drawing of wire as a forming process will stress harden copper, conductive wire is then annealed, because annealed copper is more ductile and has ~2.8% higher conductivity. In annealing, which is a high temperature process, the crystal structure is changed, dislocations in the metal becoming nucleating sites for recrystallization. At still higher temperatures the crystal grains in the metal will grow larger.

Cryo treatment in metals can normalize residual stresses and act as a sort of "annealing" or "tempering" process. I doubt Cryo treatment of wire would have much of an effect on conductivity in annealed copper because the stresses were already relived during annealing. That doesn't deter the tweako cryo companies, though.

Burning in copper wire with normal music signals that do not cause it to reach many hundreds of degrees centigrade cannot change the grain structure of the material like annealing does. I find it hard to believe it would have any effect on conductivity. Since the inductance or capacitance of the wire are a function of geometry rather than material properties, I am not sure of any other mechanism that would "change the sound" of wire.

Even the most educated of us can be flim-flammed into believing things like "intelligent chips" by non-blind demonstrations. John continues to claim that he has physics to back him up (rather like a litany) in his belief that burn in of wire changes the sound, and that we all just need to read our physics. I believe that in any argument or hypothesis, the burden of proof is on the claimant. If one cannot explain the process in a short paragraph, I don't believe that any real understanding of the process is involved in the belief.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 12:18 PM   #47
Mooly is offline Mooly  United Kingdom
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I remember the argument that ran and ran in Wireless World over cables and the "10mv diodes" within.
I think it was Ben Duncan who claimed cables had this weird effect.

Where is the proof
And why is it always audio that attracts these weird statements and claims...
You never see this in Video etc... the tweaking and claim and counterclaim... why not ?

Why not swap your video output transistors (for CRT drive) with some later better "video reproducing" type.... we hear of transistors for audio having a "sound" so why not video which is far more demanding... Bandwidth around DC to 6Mhz in the good old days.

Why why why... is it always things get better with use ? Every time ?

OK Rant over
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Old 23rd December 2009, 12:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Why why why... is it always things get better with use ? Every time ?
As someone else wisely pointed out, that's not the case for output tubes!
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Old 23rd December 2009, 12:56 PM   #49
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Curly Woods where are you?
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Old 23rd December 2009, 02:13 PM   #50
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Hopefully, studying basic physics over the holidays.
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