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Old 24th December 2009, 01:56 PM   #121
oatmeal769 is offline oatmeal769  United States
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Of course they can. I would. The argument that many seem to have trouble grasping is that, when actual audible differences occur, they are due to very mundane factors and are easily disposed of.
ooops, wrote the wrong thing, It's edited...

If there are differences due to other 'mundane' factors, the test is not neutral. You are right though, once these 'mundane factors' are corrected - or at least applied equally, audible differences do not exist.
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:01 PM   #122
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Of course they can. I would. The argument that many seem to have trouble grasping is that, when actual audible differences occur, they are due to very mundane factors and are easily disposed of.
Yes indeed. I wish that people would stop unfairly accusing others that 'they cannot hear a difference between cables'. Of cours 'we' can. I have heard lots of differences between cables. But I could explain them on the basis of measurements. Its easy to hear differnces with those speaker cables, forget the brand, with the 'boxes' on each end, because they are so pathalogical that they mess with both freq response and freq dependent damping.
It is so simple do deliberately mess with a cable so as to make it sound different to a good red homedepot cable. And if you like that sound, by all means plunk down your cash. But the difference between well designed cables with reasonable R, C, L? Haven;t heard it yet. YMMV.

And no, I have not yet heard differences between burned in and not burned in cables. So far

jd
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:38 PM   #123
rdf is offline rdf  Canada
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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
Objective tests are made all the time in well controlled and valid conditions. NO ONE has yet been able to show that a difference can be heard between a $10K cable, and a twenty dollar cable of the same length and gauge.
The objective proof has been made hundreds if not thousands of times.
As I have for almost 20 years now, I await any citation better than a loaded audio club demonstration by a biased test administrator who tells his subjects which answer is correct and which a delusion before group testing.
You sound certain to be the one to make my dreams comes true. 'Hundreds if not thousands' you say?
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:39 PM   #124
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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@sy,

In that case I would argue that you suffer from hearing problems and would counsel that you indergo a proper investigation as soon as possible to establish scientifically how far your hearing may vary from accepted norms. Although I can (just) accept your appeal to technical and scientific norms, I cannot accept the subjective reports which you sometimes have given.

@all:
Seriously though, I would suggest that anyone, especially those who have lived for 40+ years and who make strong subjective claims should have such tests as ones opinions may well be unique due to undiscovered hearing problems. I now have an annual check - next one is on 5 January. Well worth it just to see how much treble roll-off one is suffering from BEFORE spending a lot of money on new ribbon tweeters!! syn08 has admitted that he does not trust his hearing, he has some real reason why he has to trust his technical designs.
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:45 PM   #125
oatmeal769 is offline oatmeal769  United States
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Originally Posted by rdf View Post
..." loaded audio club demonstration by a biased test administrator who tells his subjects which answer is correct and which a delusion before group testing. "
Such bias would (and has been shown to) preclude objective results. In a double blind test, neither the administrator, or the subject(s) - no one - can know 'which is which' hence the term - 'Double Blind' There can be no bias or 'loading' for the test to be valid.
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:54 PM   #126
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post
Such bias would (and has been shown to) preclude objective results. In a double blind test, neither the administrator, or the subject(s) - no one - can know 'which is which' hence the term - 'Double Blind' There can be no bias or 'loading' for the test to be valid.
Bad vibes. See the unattributed, unsourced IQ test anecdote.
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:55 PM   #127
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by brianco View Post
@sy,

In that case I would argue that you suffer from hearing problems and would counsel that you indergo a proper investigation as soon as possible to establish scientifically how far your hearing may vary from accepted norms. Although I can (just) accept your appeal to technical and scientific norms, I cannot accept the subjective reports which you sometimes have given.
Speak up, son, why are you mumbling?
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Old 24th December 2009, 02:56 PM   #128
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post

<snip>

Objective tests are made all the time in well controlled and valid conditions. NO ONE has yet been able to show that a difference can be heard between a $10K cable, and a twenty dollar cable of the same length and gauge.
The objective proof has been made hundreds if not thousands of times.
<snip>
Beside the price tag, which is irrelevant in this discussion, for statistical reasons it is highly unprobable that "hundreds if not thousands" of tests do exists. Otherwise we would have most likely a lot of positive test results (maybe false positives)

Last edited by Jakob2; 24th December 2009 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 24th December 2009, 03:09 PM   #129
SY is offline SY  United States
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We may have had an example of a false positive earlier in this thread. That's one reason I'm willing to hop on a plane and go to Florida, even though it means I'm obligated to go visit my mother.
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Old 24th December 2009, 03:15 PM   #130
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Originally Posted by Mooly View Post
If you believe the properties of cable are changeable, and these "conduction" issues are real, would the idea of an amp (or device) that applies a low level HF "bias" signal across the output terminals of the amp sound like madness or not. Perhaps somewhere in the 60 to 200 khz range, amplitude perhaps 20 to 100 mv rms say.
Um, you wouldn't be suggesting a class D amplifier would you?
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