The Jastreboff Hearing Model - Hyperacusis, Tinnitus, TRT

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Hi, I wrote a paper, which explains how an accident with my audio hobby put my life in the toilet :xeye: . But, I'm on my way back. I have Hyperacusis (increased sensitivity to certain sounds) and Tinnitus (ringing ears). Here's my webpage where you can download the paper (Hearing_Beliefs.pdf):

http://sites.google.com/site/johnsaudiopage/

I think the hearing model developed by Dr. Pawel J. Jastreboff, answers some questions related audio, such as subjective versus objective listening tests. Beliefs and past experience play an important role in how we hear sounds.

I hope you find my story interesting.

If you have Hyperacusis or Tinnitus you can find help here:

http://www.tinnitus.org
 
Hi,

Read your article. Makes sense that beliefs can control
the "gain".

I hope this helps to bridge the gap between so called
subjective and objective hearing proponents.

My belief is that the ear can be much more sensitive when
used in subjective mode than people realize.

So maybe .00~00~001% amplifiers aren't such a bad idea
if the ear can really be that sensitive.

Thanks,

Mike
 
mfc said:


I hope this helps to bridge the gap between so called
subjective and objective hearing proponents.


Yeah, that's my hope. I'm really glad people are reading this, I wasn't sure how this would go over.



My belief is that the ear can be much more sensitive when
used in subjective mode than people realize.

So maybe .00~00~001% amplifiers aren't such a bad idea
if the ear can really be that sensitive.


I think so too.

I guess the lower distortion better, and the types of distortion are also important.

I read an article in popular science about a treatment similar to TRT for people with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in Popular Science (September 2008). It's kind of a similar mechanism, I'd think. Fear of sound, versus, fear of gun fire and bombs which people should be afraid of.

I also read a study that showed good thoughts could help people with Parkinson's Disease. The study showed they actually produced more dopamine, which they are deficient in.

So beliefs really do affect us a lot.
 
Thanks Bear,

Yeah, there are many causes of tinnitus, like Asprin and hearing loss. But regardless of the cause tinnitus can be treated through habituation and it is not permanent. The wearable sound generators I mentioned in my paper are also helpful as they increase the plasticity of the brain. Sometimes, counseling is required too, depending on how distressing the sound is to the person. Brain Plasiticity is a requirement for all learning, and is required in reversing these conditioned reflexes.

Basically, I'm just trying to communicate that the ears work on feedback and that beliefs are an important part of that feedback. And we respond differently to sounds based on the conditions we hear them.

Because of my condition (increased sensitivity) I'm just much more aware of these mechanisms. This stuff happens in the auditory subconcious and we have almost no conscious control of this.

I think people take this as I'm saying "your not hearing what your hearing." That's not true. The ear is just very selective. And we can respond differently to the same sound.

I mean people place importance on different aspects of sound quality. For some bass and dynamics are more important that fidelity, or for some timberal accuracy is most important. They respond more strongly to that.

I'm just trying to increase awareness of the model, and share these experiences.

I'm sure other people have different ideas on how this relates to high end audio. I just want to get this info out here.

Thanks again for reading my paper,
I really appreciate it.
 
mfc said:
I like this as an aid in understanding the subjective/objectivist
debate.

http://sites.google.com/site/johnsaudiopage
Click on the pdf link at the bottom.

What I got out of this is that the "noise floor" of the ear
is controlled by our beliefs.

Under certain circumstances (controlled by beliefs), the "noise floor" can be lowered and increase our ability to hear small details.

Under different circumstances the "noise floor" raises and we become insensitive to small details.


Mike

Hi Mike,

Basically the ear is very selective. The brain focuses on sounds of importance to you. We respond much more strongly to sounds of importance that we are familiar with. And sounds that no significance get filtered out that we hear regularly. This is called habituation.

Our ears more easily filter out some sounds that are more natural, than other non-natural sounds. Record surface noise is not particularly bothersome to me especially when I'm really enjoying a piece of music. Sometimes I become completely unaware of the sound. If I listen for it, of course, then I hear it. Some people might find it very unpleasant and distracting.

These mechanisms are just part of how we hear and we really don't think about it. Beliefs, also affect our hearing, and everyone forms different beliefs through experience. It's not really something we have conscious control over. And not something we should be concerned with, especially when listening to music.

I just don't think short ABX blind tests tell the whole story. We respond much more strongly to sounds we're familiar with. And, some sounds aren't immediately apparent.

John
 
The only time I got 'tinnitus' like symptoms was in 1970, when I went to an impromptu concert with Janis Joplin sitting in with the Grateful Dead at a club in Marin County, I was on stage and had a few 100 ugrams of LSD in me. What a performance! But what a cost. Changed my life, in more than one way.
 
john curl said:
The only time I got 'tinnitus' like symptoms was in 1970, when I went to an impromptu concert with Janis Joplin sitting in with the Grateful Dead at a club in Marin County, I was on stage and had a few 100 ugrams of LSD in me. What a performance! But what a cost. Changed my life, in more than one way.

Wow John, quite a story. I always pictured you as more conservative, but what do I know? I read that you built some sound systems for the Grateful Dead.
 
Ok,

Maybe the "noise floor" lowering might be said to occur
when you have at least the three factors of "belief",
"importance", "familiarity" optimized.

When one of these 3 is compromised, then the
"noise floor" goes up and you have trouble making out the
small details.

Could be what throws a wrench in the standard test
procedures.

Mike
 
Beliefs don't really lower the noise floor. When we respond to a sound, we respond to it relative to the level of our background sound environment (See Fig. 5, Fig. 6).

My Dad is a big believer in better cables. And about 6 months ago, I replaced his Oval Analysis silver cables on his CD player with generic $2.00 cables. He never noticed any difference, at least, he never told me about any loss of sound quality. He usually does. About 10 days later my dad said the stereo was sounding great, about the best sound he had ever heard. So, I decided to tell him about the cable.

He immediately want to know when I put it on, which I told him. And he thought a bit and said he noticed the bass got less and the highs were a bit brighter. But, he said to go ahead and leave the cable on and see how it goes.

The next day after listening a short time, he said the sound was bright and irritating and told me to take off the cable.

Did the cable affect the sound? I don't know, but more important than any change in sound was my dad's belief about cables.

Right now I have a $1.00 cable hooked up to our Benchmark DAC and the sound is really good and he doesn't know about it. I'm not gonna tell him. When I hooked up our DAC, I just didn't have another high quality cable to use that had RCA connectors, so I decided to try the $1.00. Been on there about 4 months.
 
I've been thinking about it today, and now think that "beliefs"
play a secondary role.

The primary role is "importance" and "familiarity" to getting
the best possible ability to hear small details (maybe others??).

In fact "belief" might play more of a role in false positives (hearing
something that isn't there).

Mike
 
Beliefs determine how we respond to sounds we hear. Every sound we hear gets some belief (meaning) attached to it. If the sound is important we can have increased gain for the sound. This can also depend the conditions in which we hear it. (conditioned reflexes).

As for music, people listen for enjoyment. Music activates the same areas of the brain as narcotics. So, it sounds like John Curl kind of got a major dose of enjoyment ... too much I guess. ;)

(I'm not advocating drugs ... Just Say No)

Obviously, reproduced music also produces some sounds our ears don't like. And that takes away from musical enjoyment. People like different sounds, or sound quality, and what we like may not be that accurate. So, if accuracy is a goal, you should have a "accurate" reference point - live music.

As for hearing small details, you just need a high resolution system, and good acoustics. This is a double edged sword since there's a lot of stuff on recordings I don't want to hear.

My point is that beliefs affect how you hear. I just try to keep an open mind about tweeks, and stuff. I think blind testing would be helpful but I think it has to be an extended listening blind test given how our hearing works.
 
mfc said:
I've been thinking about it today, and now think that "beliefs"
play a secondary role.

The primary role is "importance" and "familiarity" to getting
the best possible ability to hear small details (maybe others??).

In fact "belief" might play more of a role in false positives (hearing
something that isn't there).

Mike

Mike,

I've been thinking about the your comments about lowering the noise floor. As you habituate to a new sound and the background noise becomes familiar, you respond more strongly to the music signal and other distortion artifacts. So, I think that's not a bad way of looking at it.

The model is pretty complicated. And there's lots of ways to look this stuff. We are always evaluating, re-evaluating, and changing beliefs about this or that, as we have new experiences. The central nervous system is in a constant state of flux.

John
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.