Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Everything Else Anything related to audio / video / electronics etc) BUT remember- we have many new forums where your thread may now fit! .... Parts, Equipment & Tools, Construction Tips, Software Tools......

Null Difference Testing
Null Difference Testing
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th April 2003, 11:51 PM   #41
fdegrove is offline fdegrove  Europe
diyAudio Senior Member
fdegrove's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Belgium


I can't imagine how the music signal is creating RF oscillations in the power cord? If the cord was simply reducing the background noise, the RF argument might make more sense.
Not surprised there.
Suppose magnetic coupling is new to you too?

I know, you're going to ask for proof again?

And no, I don't think jitter reflects back on powercords, or more correctly AC powerlines.

Wondering why I bother educating this stubborn Rita,
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th April 2003, 04:04 AM   #42
nw_avphile is offline nw_avphile  United States
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northwest
Default A revision

Originally posted by Thunau
Anyway, The Alesis piece is close to the spec even with the regular cord. Keep in mind that we are reading DA and AD performance in series, so the error is multiplied.
I revise my earlier comment if you're talking about the THD spec. -75db would be .017% which is in the ballpark if we assume we can use the 10ms RMS average analysis value of the difference signal. Things get a little tricky when you start talking about distortion levels averaged over a clip of real music instead of sine waves.

I'm still intrigued by your results!
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th April 2003, 05:54 AM   #43
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
diyAudio Member
jan.didden's Avatar
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The great city of Turnhout, BE
Default Re: The good and the bad guys....

Originally posted by nw_avphile

My own tests show that a null of -50db is sufficient for most people not to hear a difference in blind listening tests. I extend that to -60db to allow for people with really exceptional hearing/listening skills. Bob Carver claimed he managed a -70db null in the Carver Challenge which fooled the ears of the Stereophile editors.

So somewhere between -50db and -70db null I believe we can safely say there are no audible differences to be heard. So, yes, if the amplifier is only managing -40db or -50db by itself, it may well mask differences in the cables. If it's closer to -70db, however, I'd have to say the null is sufficiently deep to argue the two things being compared will be indistinguishable in a blind listening test.

As was discussed a bit in the other thread, the more accurate way to do this would be to "weight" the null results (something like A weighting for S/N measurements) according to human hearing sensitivity. A poor null at 20khz is less likely to be audible than a poor null at 500hz.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tube_Dude

We are in agreement then.

Jan Didden
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th April 2003, 06:00 AM   #44
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
diyAudio Member
jan.didden's Avatar
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The great city of Turnhout, BE
Default Re: The good and the bad guys....

Originally posted by Tube_Dude

So for you interconects must be considered transmission lines ...so for a load impedance of 47k the cable feeding it must be a 47kOhms intrinsec impedance...

What about a digital cable for interconect??...it was built for to work as a transmission line...well...but only with 75 Ohms load!!!

It's amazing!!!

But who is in reality spreading nonsense here???
As I'm sure you all know, the difference between analog and digital interconnects is that the latter must faithfully transmit very high bandwith signals (perfect squarewave preferably). Therefore in digital interconnects transmissionline effects DO matter. In analog interconnects, the signal frequencies are way too low to cause transmissionline effects. Just calculate the characteristic impedance of a standard audio cable (signal or speaker) and try to find the resulting phase shift at anything less than a Mhz.

Jan Didden
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2003, 02:45 PM   #45
Circlotron is offline Circlotron  Australia
diyAudio Member
Circlotron's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default Re: audio transmission lines

Originally posted by nw_avphile

Except Tube_Dude is correct, the transmission line issues don't matter below 20khz! I challenge someone to show me a measurement of any cable artifact that can be reproduced with typical cables and equipment AND can be argued is audible (i.e. it's amplitude is greater than -70db below the signal).
"Typical cables" is probably the important part here. Back in the days before optic fibre, telephone conversations were routed all over a city in pure analogue form with the help of repeater amplifiers over copper wires with a characteristic impedance of 600 ohms for wires on poles. Propagation speed is about 150,000 miles per second for this open wire stuff. If you were talking to someone 20 or 30 miles away and you knew what you were listening for, you could hear reflections of occasional impulse type noise along the length of the line and back. Not many people have 30 mile long audio cables in their listening room but if they did then this audio transmission line thing would be a concern. As it is now, I don't perceive any real problem with "typical cables" and for that I am happy.
Best-ever T/S parameter spreadsheet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2003, 04:00 PM   #46
EternaLightWith is offline EternaLightWith  United States
diyAudio Member
Join Date: May 2002
Send a message via AIM to EternaLightWith Send a message via Yahoo to EternaLightWith
Default Like cellphones?

Is that like when talking on a cell phone and sometimes, with a bad connection, you can hear yourself speaking like 250ms delayed "echo".

If this is true then, we're talking about many miles right? Satellites are alot higher up than 30 miles.

  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2004, 10:03 PM   #47
annex666 is offline annex666  England
diyAudio Member
annex666's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: England
With regards to the transmission line argument...

Do we all agree that electromagnetic waves exist?

It can be proven both mathematically and by measurement that moving charges create effects not only in their locality, but also very far away - this observation we describe as a field (i.e. the area within which one object has an effect on another object with which it has no physical contact).

These moving charges create both an oscillating electric and magnetic field that exist at 90 degrees to each other - if these are expressed as two vectors E and H a third vector can be described called the Poynting (not pointing) vector that is at 90 degrees to both fields (E X H = S - cross product) and describes the propagation of the electomagnetic wave through space (or infact any medium).

The "Transmission line" is a fairly misleading concept as it is often taught, "it's a few bits of wire that looks like coax or something" - infact any two conducting object can act to some degree as a "transmission line".

It is more prudent to think of a "transmission line" as an electromagnetic wave guide as this is infact the phenomenon people are as observing - an electromagnetic wave being guided by whatever physical structure is defined as the "transmission line".

When an electromagnetic wave reaches an impedance mismatch a reflection is observed - this is why we used a "matched load" system, to minimise such reflections. Although it is much less often explained that ANY electromagnetic wave will act in this manor - for example when light (an electromagnetic wave) reaches an impedance mismatch (air-glass interface) some of it will be absorbed (remember the absorbtion co-efficient tau) and some of it reflected (likewise the reflection co-efficient rho).

The impedance of a medium is not as simple as you expect - when measuring a simple resistor the impedance is simply the ratio of voltage and current (Volts / Amps), but in general the formula for impedance is the ratio of the electric field (E) and the magnetic field (H) - (volts per meter / amps per meter).

Therefore any medium can have a characteristic impedance and is subject to what you may call "transmission line theory".

In short any two wires WILL exibit "transmission line" characteristics, but the measurable effects may well be negligable at the frequencies you observe. Therefore it is often not of interest to simulate wires as "transmission lines" as this would require a large amount of unnecessary calculation.

I appologise if none of that makes sence - it's late and I just stumbled across this thread and thought I'd throw in what I know.

...if it ain't broke don't fix it - make it BETTER!
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2004, 10:22 PM   #48
SY is offline SY  United States
On Hiatus
SY's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Null Difference Testing
You have to be careful about scale; at audio frequencies, the wavelengths are so long that cabling has negligible transmission line characteristics. In order to demonstrate any tl-like effects, you have to go up to frequencies where the cable is an appreciable fraction of the wavelength. This is important for video signals and high speed digital, far less so for audio.
"You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2004, 05:32 PM   #49
michaelab is offline michaelab  Portugal
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Just a quick note to say that the article by Douglas Self about subjectivism linked to by nw_avphile on the first post of this thread has moved. It's new location is:


A very interesting article it is too

  Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2004, 07:25 PM   #50
audio-kraut is offline audio-kraut  Canada
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 12km off the alaska highway in northern BC
@michaelab - thanks for this excellent article.

But it is like this - whoever wants to believe will not be swayed from the path of righteous subjectivism, anymore than a believer will be deterred from his religion.

I for some time build my audio chain with pro equipment - cheaper and mor reliable than any high falutin burmysteries...

annex666 - ithe question is - what are the effects on my ears after that electrical information has been converted to air pressure differentials.
  Reply With Quote


Null Difference TestingHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Null Test tbrooke Pass Labs 6 12th May 2009 03:51 PM
looking for null circuit jaudio Chip Amps 17 2nd December 2008 07:54 PM
take a look at my fr plots and tell me what you think about that null pjpoes Multi-Way 14 19th July 2008 02:44 AM
Carver + null difference test + how can i copy a amp umutmt Analog Line Level 2 4th September 2007 03:03 AM

New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:35 AM.

Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.79%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio